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DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON BOTANICAL WORK: 



8 Nov. 1900. 



3fr. W. 584. Would tliat building have to be kept up in the 



Carruthers, same architectural style as the British Museum? — Yes. 

 F.R.S. The present building is an incomplete one. The original 

 plans were only partially carried out. 



585. Have you any idea what the cost of the Natural 

 History building was? — I did know it at the time, 

 but it is so long ago that I have forgotten. 



585. {Mr. Seymour.) The collections paid for by the 

 State in connection with botany are duplicates to a 

 great extent. There are two bodies, one at the Britisli 

 Museum and one at Kew. Is it not the fact that botany 

 is the only science that has got a double estabhshment ? 

 — My friend Professor Balfour has a State-supported 

 herbarium, which is, as far as it goes, a duplicate, at 

 Edinburgh. 



587. I am only asking you in comparison with other 

 branches of scientific knowledge, whether there is any 

 science that requires at the hands of the State a double 

 establisliment except botany ? I do not mean, of 

 course, in the sense of Edinburgh, because there you 

 have other collections as well, but in Kew and London, 

 which are practically the same, you have double estab- 

 lishments ? — I am not aware that there is any other branch 

 of science in the same way supported by the State. I 

 would not say that it is actually so, as 1 have not in- 

 vestigated tlie matter. 



583. Is there any particular reason why botany should 

 be distinguished in that way, vrhy it should have a 

 double establishment of that kind? — I think as long :' 

 the collection of fossil plants and other biological sec- 

 tions in the British Museum exist, it is absolutely 

 necessary to have a collection of plants. 



589. But it has grovm up to a certain extent by 

 accident, has it not? — I think not, quite. I beheve I 

 went into my knowledge of the history in the evidence 

 now before the Commission. 



590. {Professor Balfour.) With regard to the exhibi- 

 tion portion, I believe the present lines of the exhibitic 7i 

 at 'Cromwell Eoad were laid down by you, — the morpho- 

 logical series you have there ? — Tes. 



591. We have had it in evidence that the lower por- 

 tion of the hall is not under the control of the Keeper 

 of Botany at all? — It was under my control, but tre 

 funds which enabled me to carry out that exhibition 

 were supplied by the Director. 



592. That is to say, it was prepared by you, but 

 you could only do it with the money supplied by the 

 Director? — 1 could not go beyond the money allowed me 

 by tlie Director in carrying it out. 



593. It was not a part of your vote? — It was qui'e 

 different from my vote. I had no control at all over the 

 vote from which the money came. 



594. I suppose you laid very great store by tiat 

 morphological exhibition? — ^Very great store, and I was 

 exceedingly anxious to carry it on. 



595. Did you find it was very much consulted and used 

 by students generally? — It was outside the Departmen'. 

 and I cannot speak of how much it was used, but I 

 know it was used. 



596. Was it framed with the idea that it would be 

 ased? — Undoubtedly. Sir Richard Owen in the first 

 instance began the work, and meant to exhibit there 

 a continuous morphological series of both the animal 

 and the vegetable kingdom. I had a conference witl> 

 him about it. He began with the higher animals, and 

 came down to the lower animals ; and I began in the 

 next compartment with, the lower plants, and proceeded 

 to the more highly organised. That was done so far as 

 the materials could be obtained, and money to meet the 

 accommodation of the materials was at my disposal. 

 But, of course, as the money was used to a large extent 

 for the zoological exhibition, and that was more exten- 

 sive, there was not so much for my botanical exhibition. 



597. Would it be very much better that it should 

 be entirely in the hands of the Keeper of Botany?— It 

 was absolutely in my hands. 



598. But the money would ihave been better in 

 your hands?— I should have been able to finish the 

 work sooner. 



599. The reason I have asked you about that is. 

 that over the way at the Royal College of Science they 

 lj£ye a small teachilng collection, and I suppose it would 

 be entirely a duplicalsion if they were to extend 

 that collection and open it to the public? — I think 

 not. The morphological collection we are making is 

 not the sort of collection that would be used for teach- 



ing. I think it is a great gain as a supplement to a 

 teaching collection, but the teaching collection would 

 not be a duplicate of what exists there. 



600. Tour idea is that that morphological collection 

 should not be extended as a teaching collection for 

 SEudents? — It has its own purposes. It is pure mor- 

 phology, and so far as possible it ought to be com- 

 pleted. The work is still being carried on. 



601. Tou do not think it would take the place of any- 

 ching that could be made at the College of Science ? — 

 No. 



602. Do you tliiiik, if they were to make a museum 

 at the Royal College of Science, it should be made inde- 

 pendent of yours? — 'Quite. I do not think it could be 

 made open to the public at the College of Science. It 

 is a sort of private collection for the students of the 

 college Besides the College of Science we ' have 

 many other institutions in London which teach botany, 

 and the collection is as open to these institu- 

 tions as to the College of Science. Of course, for such 

 purposes the public gallery was to a large extent 

 prepared witli the view of being useful to students^ 

 although the public were kept in view, and the exhibi- 

 tion was made as interesting as dried plants can be made 

 interesting to the public. 



603. But you do not allow students into the herba- 

 rium ? — Not students who are learning, but students 

 who have got past the learning stage are of course 

 freely admitted there. 



604. Do you think it would be possible to have a 

 students' herbarium for learners ? — I think a learner 

 would probably not go beyond the British plants. I 

 do not know that tliere is in existence any better 

 student's herbarium than the one which is exhibited 

 in tlie Public Room, where every British flowering 

 plant and even, the cryptogamic plants are exhibited, 

 and any student can examine and compare them there. 



605. {Mr. Darwin.) I understood you to say that yoa 

 consider that for the use of a palseo-botainist an ab- 

 solutely complete herbarium is required ? — ^My belief is, 

 that no herbarium can be complete for the use of palse- 

 ontological botanists, because you never know Avhero 

 you have to go in search of affinities or allies of t"''e 

 plants that you are dealing with. Tou cannot make a 

 too complete herbarium for a man who is studying 

 fossil botany. 



606. Is it not a fact that the recent developments of 

 work in fossil botany have depended largely on micro- 

 scopic work ? — That is true, but it has been to the injury 

 of systematic botanj-. We cannot have a view of fossil 

 plants if that is entirely confined to these plants in which 

 the structure is preserved. The immense majority of 

 the fossil plants wliich have been carefully determined 

 have been determined from external impressions where 

 the substance of the plants has been converted into coal 

 and wliere the information is entirely obtained from 

 external characters. That is true of palteozoic plants and 

 inesozoic plants, and it much more true of Tertiary 

 plants. 



607. In the use of the heilbarium for palaeontology it 

 is chiefly in the leaf form, is it not ? — ^No. You must 

 have materials for invetigating the stnicture as well. 



608. In what sense ? — ^If you are dealing with stems, 

 you must have material for a histological investigation. 



609. That would not be herbarium material, but fresh 

 material that you would want? — The hei*barium does not 

 consist of a collectioin of plants, or portions of plants, 

 with fruit or flowers, but it has two jjarallel series, one 

 of woods or stems and one of fruits, and this parallel 

 series are an integral part of the herbarium, and any- 

 one investigating has free access to these. In such in- 

 vestigations as have been more recently the fashion in 

 fossil botany these will be utilised. 



610. Those have been utilised rather than separate 

 specimens or fresh ? — You must run down your things in 

 some way, and you would not begin with living plants 

 in your search for the allies of a fossil. Tou must begin 

 with specimens you can handle, and when j"ou have run 

 them down you may try and get fresh material. But 

 you must have some general knowledge of where you are 

 likely to find the structures you are looking for. 



611. Tou spoke of Mr. Miers as an instance of a man 

 in business who had not much rime to spare and who 

 found it more convenient to go to the British Museum. 

 In the case of the other institutions that you know of 

 are there similar workers or are there more British bota- 

 nists? It is possible to say that t.Eat type of work is 



