MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 



31 



generally done by a British botanist ? — To a large extent 

 he is a British botanist, but not entirely. 



612. But a considerable percentage would be British 

 botanists ? — Certainly. 



613. (Chairman.) You were speaking of tlie great im- 

 pi_)rtance of a complete herbarium for the study of fossil 

 plants. Are there not also veiy great advantages in the 

 study of fossil plants in a collection of living plants, or 

 is that a matter of quite secondary consideration ? — I 

 tliink when you are investigating structure it is desir- 

 able to have living plants that you can cut up in a fresh 

 state ; but fossil botany is pursued also as a systematic 

 work, and sj'stematic botanists do not use, as a matter 

 of fact, living plants. You will find in the evidence 

 jou have before you one or two illustrations of tliis. I 

 askod, by letter, Mr. John Smith, w^ho was curator of 

 the gardens at Kew, and an authority on living ferns, 

 if he could tell me to what extent Sir William Hooker 

 us 3d the living ferns in the preparation of his "Species 

 Filicum," and iVIr. Smith in a letter, which I believe is 

 in the British IMuseum in charge of my successor, Mr. 

 Murray, said that Sir William Hooker never used on 

 any occasion the living ferns for that work. You will 

 find also in the evidence given by Mr. Bentham before 

 the Devonshire Commission that lie never used growing 

 plants for systematic work though he was working at 

 Kew. As a matte>r of fact, systematic botany is inT:he 

 hands of harbarium botanists, and there seems to be 

 no connection between a herbarium and a botanical 

 garden save the help that the dried plants should be to 

 the gardeners or curators in getting the correct names 

 for tlie plants. 



614. That you think holds as good now as it did at the 

 time ? — I think if such systematic botanists as Sir Wil- 

 liam Hooker and George Benth.am found it so it would 

 most likely govern the worker of the present day. 



615. (Frufcssor Balfour.) For instance, a garden is 

 very useful in connection with Cacti ? — In my own judg- 

 ment I think a garden would be very important for many 

 groups of plants, but I submitted these statements as 

 matters of fact. The systematic study of Cacti must be 

 carried on to a very large extent in the herbarium. 



616. (Chairman.) Then with regard .to the evidence 

 which we have taken from the Devonshire Commission, 



Mr. W. 



Carrxithers, 



F.n.S. 



would you be willing that our Secretary should place 

 in your liands wliat we liave taken of your evidence ? — 

 Certainly. I have nut recently read over that evidence, 

 but as far as my memoiy of it goes I adhere to what I 8 Nov. '.900, 

 then said. Coming up in the train this morning I made 

 one or two notes. I noted th^t it was very important 

 to have the collections in London because those who 

 maintain them, the taxpayers of the country, have more 

 easy access to them. It has been objected that collections 

 in London must suffer from soot or other impurities, but 

 that is not tlie case. AYe have in the herbarium tlie 

 collections of Sir Hans Sloane, whicli have been there for 

 150 years, and they are in as good a condition now and 

 as free from soot or dust as the collections of the past 

 year. I do not know that there is anything else im- 

 portant except that I may be allowed to refer again to 

 the terrible calamity which would befall the study of 

 fossil plants, which are of so great importance in geology, 

 by the removal of the herbarium with all its accessories, 

 its fruits and its woods, to a distance from the collection 

 of fossil plants. 



617. Dues that remark apply to the tyjie s^pecimens or 

 would your purpose be met with a complete herbarium of 

 simply authentic specimens? — Certainly not. If the 

 thing were not kept up as a working scientific her- 

 barium, it would be always an indifferent and unsatis- 

 factory one for these purposes. 



618 But for the purpose of the study of fossil botany, 

 what you are arguing for are specimens to which he may 

 refer, and it would be sufficient for that purpose if the 

 specimens were authentic — not type specimens which 

 are used in botanical research ? — Botanical research deals 

 with fossil plants ais well as recent plants, and such a 

 collection could not be of real serrice unless it were main- 

 tained as a working scientific herbarium. You could 

 not otherwise get the necessary material together. 



619. That is what I want to know. For the purpose 

 of fossil botany you would require not simply a herba- 

 rium of merely authentic specimens, but a "herbarium 

 of type specimens such as is used by a scientific botanist 

 who is pursuing a research with regard to living plants ? 

 ■ — That is my conviction. 



[A memorandum subsequently received from this wit- 

 ness will be found in Appendix HI.] 



FOURTH DAY. 



WESTMINSTER PALACE HOTEL 



Wednesday, 14th November, 190C 



PJRESENT 



Sir Michael Foster, k.c.b., m.p., sec.r.s., &c. (in the Chair). 



The Right Hon. Baeoj^ Avebuey, p.c, f.r.s. 

 Sir John Kirk, g.c.m.g., k.c.b., f.r.s. 

 Professor Isaac Bayley Balfour d.sc, f.r.s. 



Mr. Francis Darwin, m.b., f.r.s. 



Mr. Horace Alfred Damer Seymour, c.b. 



Mr. Stephen Edward Spring Rice, c.b. 



Mr. Benjamin Daydon Jackson, Secretary. 



De. AIaxwell Ttlden Masters, F.R.S., Editor of The Gardeners' Chronicle, called; and examined. 



620. (Chairman.) 1 believe you have been for the 

 greater part of your Hfe engaged in the study of botany, 

 and I think you have been for many years the editor of 

 The Gardeners' Chronicle? — Yes. 



621. Therefore you are able to speak to us on the one 

 hand as a botanist, and on the other hand as one specially 

 acquainted with the interests of horticulture, with re- 

 gard to the two institutions with which we have to deal, 

 the Gardens at Kew and the Botanical Department of 

 the British Museum? — Yes. 



622. You are acquainted with the Herbarium at Kew 

 and the Herbarium at the British Museum ? — Yes. 



623. Have you used both of them ? — Yes. 



624. As a botanist, can you say that taiere are special 

 purposes for wlhich you use the one and special purposes D?: M. T. 

 for which you use the other?— Yes ;_not absolutely, but Masters, 

 generally so. I go to the British 'Museum if I want to f.r.s. 



consult the " old masters," or some of the old collections, 



and I go to Kew if I want the more modern things, and 1'* Nov. 190 

 things connected with the gardens and horticulture. 



625. As a botanist, you go to Kew for research, which 

 does not entail any historical points ? — Exactly ; spcakiiis; 

 generally, of course. 



626. Do you find the collection there richer fci you. 

 purpose ? — Much richer. 



627. Is it because it is richer in the particular divisios 



