44 



DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON BOTANICAL WORK 



Mr. H. J. ^^^ ^^ ^t present should be removed, but in place of 

 FAwes, F.R.s. that herbarium, which is now very rich in what are 



called type specimens, a herbarium as complete as 



15 Nov. 1900. possible, but without type specimens, should be placed 



at Kew ?— I do not say you might not in the course of 



another century possibly collect a herbarium at Kew 

 which might be as valuable or more valuable than the 

 existing one, but I say that the existence of another 

 herbarium to which the types were taken would compel 

 everybody to do their work twice over. The com- 

 petition which must naturally go on as long as you 

 have two herbaria is evident, one must suffer for the 

 other ; whichever is worked by the most capable and 

 energetic men goes ahead. Certainly Kew will always 

 attract collectors more than others, because the horti- 

 culturists go to Kew, and the scientific travellers, who 

 bring home live as well as dried plants, send 

 them to Kew. You can by no possible means divert 

 from Kew a great many of the best acquisitions, and 

 as long as there is competition going on it must be 

 bad for both. I do not think if you take away from 

 Kew eveiything they have tliat you twould prevent the 

 reaccumulation of another collection. But still you 

 would cripple the establishment for many years to 

 come. 



1025. What I rather meant was this, that the value 

 of the herbarium at Kew for the general purposes of 

 the Gardens is dependent upon that herbarium con- 

 taining type specimens ? — I am not a worshipper of 

 types myself, because I (think a type, in the museum 

 sense of the word, is a thing which very often 

 does not exist in nature. A type is really an aggre- 

 gation of individuals, and from that point of view I 

 say that a very large quantity of specimens are neces- 

 sary for examination before you know what is typical 

 of the species. I do noit think a small herbarium is 

 of much use to anyone. 



1026. Then I understand you to be of opinion that 

 no herbarium at the British Museum, however com- 

 plete or howeveir good, would satisfy the needs of 

 horticulturists ? — ^No. 



1027. They must have at Kew not only the living 

 plants, but also an adequate herbarium? — ^When you 

 say adequate I do not recognise any herbarium as 

 adequate which is not as complete as ability and in- 

 dustry will make it. I say you have very nearly got 

 that at Kew, and I do not think you can take it away 

 from them. 



1028. So you tliink you may say on 'behalf of horti- 

 culturists that they would deplore any change in the 

 arrangements at Kew in the way of diminution? — I 

 think they would resist it to the utmost of their 

 power. 



1029. Do you tliink that would welcome the further 

 enrichment of the herbarium at Kew by the trans- 

 ference to it of the herbarium at the British Museum? 

 ■ — I should not like to say. I can only speak for 

 myself, and I have never had occasion to consult the 

 herbarium at the British Museum for the purposes 

 for which I go to Kew. I do not suppose many people 

 would feel differently from myself, but I should not 

 like to say. Personally I look upon Kew as so com- 

 plete and satisfactory that I do not pay any attention 

 to the other. 



1030. (Lord Avehury.) If it involved a good deal of 

 expense to move the collection from Cromwell Road 

 to Kew, do you think it would be worth while from 

 your point of view doing it ? — ^No ; I think that possibly 

 nine-tenths of what exists at the herbarium there 

 would be duplicates. 



1031. You speak of competition ; have you come 

 across any cases in which either of the two collections 

 or the public interests have suffered by any com- 

 petition between the Natural History Museum and 

 Kew? — I should not like to specify cases. It has been 

 represented to me more than once that such cases have 

 arisen, and that higher prices have had to be paid, 

 that is to say, that possessors or representatives of 

 owners of herbaria have run one place against the other 

 ■with a view to getting a higher price. I have heard 

 that Mr. C B. Clarke has acted as executor for a de- 

 ceased naturalist, and that although he was a Kew man 

 he was bound to do the best he could for his trust, 

 and I believe the collection eventually went to the 

 British Museum. 



1032. Is that the only case that you are prepared 

 to bring forward of your own knowledge? — I could 

 not bring that forward of my own knowledge, that is 

 only hearsay, I could not speak of any case that has 

 occurred to me personally. 



1033. Do you think it desirable that there should be 



in London some exhilbition, educaitional or otherwise, 

 of botany ? — ^I .think educational, yes. 



1034. You would keep what one may call the public 

 part of the galJeries? — ^I sho'uld like to see kept up 

 there a popular illustration, and as interesting aa 

 possible, for the ordinary public, of the floral world, 

 bu/b it would be distinctly looked upon as popular and 

 educational. Of course, it would have to be soientifiG 

 too. 



1035. Would you consider that it w'ouM be oraotical 

 and necessary in that case to have some general col- 

 lection from which such an educational exhibition 

 might be fed from time to time ? — No, I do not -think 

 so. I think that if the person in charge of that 

 department found new plants of great interest from 

 his point of view, and he could not get them, he 

 would go to Kew for them, and I think it would be the 

 duty of Kew to supply everything they receive which 

 had a special interest for such a purpose. It would 

 not be very difficult to pro'\'ide them for the British 

 Museum. 



1036. Then you would consider that the authorities 

 of the British Museum should have some call, so to 

 speak, on the assistance of Kew to keep up the 

 exhibition? — I think so, certainly. 



1037. That there should be some more close relation 

 between the Natural History Museum and the authori- 

 ties at Kew ? — ^Yes, I should look upon it as a branch 

 of the Kew work under the direction of the British 

 Museum authorities. The Museum should look to Kew 

 for its maintenance in regard to illustrations and 

 specimens which could not be procured elsewhere. 



1038. Yoa would give the Trustees of the British 

 Museum a sort of right to appeal to Kew for speci- 

 mens? — Certainly, as all public departments do now 

 on subjects which affect Kew. 



1039. (Mr. Seymour.) From your experience of the 

 herbarium at Kew, do you consider there are many 

 duplicates there at present? — 1 do not quite know what 

 j'ou mean by a duplicate. 



1040. I would rather that you said what your idea of 

 a duplicate was than I did, but one of the questions we 

 have to decide is with regard to the avoidance of dupHca- 

 tion in the coUeetions of the two institutions. I will ask 

 you in another way : supposing the two herbaria are con- 

 centrated or amalgamated, would there then be a consider- 

 able number of duplicates ? — ^A duplicate is a vague term. 

 If the director at Kew had to undertake such an amalga- 

 mation he would probably require several years in which to 

 do it, and he would be very cautious in treating things as 

 duplicates until he knew they were superfluous, because 

 it requires a very intimate knowledge of a genus, a much 

 more intimate knowledge than a general botanist could 

 have, to say what is a duplicate in any particular case. 

 Specimens are sometimes treated as duplicates 

 which are afterwards wanted, and vice versa ; a great 

 deal of absolute rubbish is kept in colleotions from 

 rather antiquarian and historical reasons than any real 

 scientific value of the specimens. That is my view of it, 

 speaking much more, you will understand, from a zoologi- 

 cal than a botanical point of view. This has come before 

 me very strongly in zoological work ; so far as I have 

 done botanical work I believe it applies exactly in the 

 same vray to botanical specimens. 



1041. In any case the work done in that way would be 

 work to be done very gradually, and would cover a long 

 time ? — It would have to be done gradually, and very care- 

 fully. 



1042. (Professor Balfour.) Under modern conditions of 

 travel, travellers nowadays bring home so many living 

 specimens that they would not have the same induce- 

 ments to go to the British Museum as to Kew? — Cer- 

 tainly not. That is what first took me to Kew. 



1043. And the national collection would probably 

 suffer? — I think it would suffer very much. 



1044. Supposing you transferred the herbarium, or as 

 much as was wanted, to Kew, what would you do with 

 the library at South Kensington ? — ^That is an administra- 

 tive question whicli I should not hke to answer. If they 

 had works there which were not in Kew Herbarium 

 library, I should hand them ovev, because complete- 

 ness is everything. You can say when a book is a 

 duplicate and when it is not. 



1045. W^ould you take from that collection as much as 

 is wanted to make Kew complete ? — Yes. 



1046. You have no opinion as to what should be done 



