52 



DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON BOTANICAL WORK 



Prof. E. 1!. Science. Such museums do not need to te extensive, 

 Lankester, and are easily provided for. 



LL.D,, F.R.s. 1174. But would it not be a difficult thing to separate 

 •9« N ""lo^ between the popular or edificative, and the educative? 

 _ll_ ■'•^ botanical Avork would it not ^be rather difficult to 

 separate in connection with the exhibition such objects 

 as would be for the edification of the public, and such 

 objects as would be used for tliis pedagogic work? — I do 

 not think it ss difficult. It depends on the attitude of 

 the person who exhibits those objects, and the persons 

 he is aiming at. It is not possible to combine in any 

 way the two in one. If I exhibit to the ordinary visitor, the 

 stranger from the country, or the resident in London 

 who happens to be interested in birds or animals or 

 plants, I exliibit things in a different way altogether — a 

 different selection of things, with a diSere_nt aim in view — 

 to that which I should adopt if I were addressing students 

 who intended to give several months to close study of 

 the elements of either botany or zoology. I think that 

 is obvious, and that everybody must feel it. I can show 

 models of carnivorous plants to the first class of people, 

 and 'give them some explanation as to the nature of these 

 carrivcrrais plants, or I can show them a stufied gorilla, 

 and possdibly its skeleton by its side. But I should not 

 undertake to teach them either systematic botany or 

 'botanical anorphology, or to teach them osteology. I 

 should tell them something about the specimens, some- 

 thing which tliey could easily carry away with them, but 

 my attitude towards a visitor and my attitude towards 

 a student would be qtiite different in the two cases. 



1175. If you were to remove the herbarium to Kew 

 do you think it wouid be a great disadvantage to the 

 people living an London? — No. I think that notion may 

 be greatly exaggerated. The underground railway 

 which brings you to South Kensington, which must bring 

 a considerable niunber of persons who come to South 

 Kensington, in another 20 minutes would take you to 

 Kew, and it cannot make a veiy great difference to the 

 visitor whether it as South Kensington or Kew to which 

 he goes. 



1176. With regard to fossil collections, as I understand 

 you, the botanical element in the Geological Department 

 is quite subordinate to the zcologiioal? — ^I should rather 

 not put it in tha/t way. I should say that the number of 

 the specimens and the importance of the specimens repre- 

 senting fossill plants is very much smaller than that 

 belonging to the animal series. 



1177. Do you think the removal of this would veiy 

 much injure the geological work there, as it is carried 

 on at present ? — ^I do not know that there is any geological 

 work carried on there. It would not affect the study 

 of animal palaeontology which does go on there. 



1178. Then these plants are not, as you say. kept as 

 indices at all in connection with stratigraphical geology, 

 but if yoa had galleries of stratigraphical geology yott 

 would want fossil pknts for them?- — If that were ever 

 done you would have, I suppose, for every stratum and 

 locality represented in your collections, the fragments of 

 plants as well as animals, which would giive an indication 

 of the nature of the condi'tiiohs under which that 'bed was 

 deposited. For that pui^jose you do not require veiy 

 fine Ispecimens of either plants or animals ; all you 

 require are the fragments which are indicative — in fact, 

 for a geologist these fragments are more instmictive than 

 fine specimens. They accustom him to read the indica- 

 tions of small pieces, to identify them, and show that 

 they belong to such and such organisms. 



1179. In your view it would he a distinct -advantage to 

 have not only the fossil plants 'but the herbaritim speci- 

 mens actually with the' living plants — to focus them, and 

 make one big botanical institution ? — That is my pre- 

 sent opinion as a scientific naturalist. 



1180. {Mr. Danvin.) We have had evidence before us 

 that a herbaritim is eminently necessary for the study of 

 fossil plants, not m-erely an ordinary herbaritim, but an 

 extremely perfect one. Again, we have had it in evidence 

 that the study of fossil plants is very much aided by the 

 presence of a first-rate botanical garden. Our witnesses 

 went so far as to say that they thought it extremely 

 desirable to move the fossil plants to Kew merely for 

 those reasons. But I gather that you do not think that is 

 an argument for removing the fossil plants to Kew ?— 

 I do not. 



1181. I thought in your last answer that you said you 

 were in favour of movins; the fossil plants to Kew? — • 

 Tes ; but on the ground that fossil nlants are studied by 

 botanists, and if yott have an instittxtion which is fre- 

 quented by botanists, and which possesses a 

 large botanical staff, the natural place for the 



fossil plants would be that 'botanical institution^ 

 I am not sure that it has been stated in evi-- 

 dence to this Committee, but I think it should. 

 be said that fossil plants are now being studied at 

 Kew, and specimens which belong to the Natural 

 History Department of the British Museum have- 

 been studied by a gentleman who is engaged in. 

 the Jodrell Laboratory at Kew, and who is work- 

 ing at fossil plants. I should be very much sur- 

 prised if he were to say that it (was necesary for him 

 to do that in a garden, and I should be very much 

 astonished if he said it was necessary he should be close 

 to a herbarium. Of course, both these things must be 

 within a day's journey, and accessible to him. \^Tien. 

 once he gets the material he does not require to carry on. 

 his studies of sections of fossil plants either in proximity 

 to a herbarium, or a garden, or fossil animals. 



1182. I am not talking about Dr. Scott, but other ex- 

 perts have expressed a strong opinion of the desirability 

 of having the fossil plants in close proximity to the ■ 

 herbarium and gardens ? — ^I must say that the expert wha 

 is really engaged in the matter might perhaps give a. 

 valuable opinion. 



1183. I was wanting to get yotir opinion really about 

 it, and I gather you do not think that is a sufficient re;i60n 

 for reanoving the things. to Kew. There is one point about, 

 the educational series in the Cromwell Road that I do not 

 quite see. To take an instance, those morphological . 

 specimens in the bays on the ground floor, would .vi'>u call 

 them as making for the edification of the public ? — No, 

 I would not. I do not see why I should not say that I do ■■ 

 not like the scheme of those plants. Probably the Com- 

 mittee is aware that the bays of the central liall we;-e to 

 form a sort of index museum, as it was originally called., 

 by Sir Richard Owen ; general faots about the difi'erent . 

 great groups, both of animals and plants, were to be in- 

 dicated in those bays. His scheme apparently for that was - 

 to give very elementary broad outlines of the characters 

 of large groups of animals and plants. That has never - 

 been carried out. The very beautiful series of things put 

 up by Sir William Flower is much more detailed tham 

 such a scheme would imply, and the Keeper of Botany 

 being requested to put up something with regard to-' 

 plants of the same nature as that which has been done • 

 with regard to the vertebrate animals by Sir William 

 Flower has, I think, rather overshot the mark. 



1184. I only meant as making for edification from the - 

 point of view of someone who knows a little more. It is 

 entirely a question of what public you are aiming at ? — 

 No doubt ; but the larger public, that is the point. 

 You have not to aim at a limited body of students. 

 Aiiother important ' point I think is that the two ■ 

 things cannot be done coincidentally. You cannot 

 with any advantage bring an uneducated person — un- 

 educated I mean in this special matter either of " 

 botanv or zoology — in tJie presence of a pedagogic or ■ 

 academic collection. He is simply confused, perplexed, 

 and repelled by the mass of detail and elaborate 

 explanation which the more instructed person might 

 take in with pleasure. 



1185. You have not got room to do anything for the 

 edification jof a slightly more educated public, is that so ? ' 

 - — -That ;s so. I have never understood, and I do not 

 think that the policy of undertaking such instruction 

 has been accepted by the Trustees, but I am not able to 

 say that with any authority. It appears to me, judging • 

 by the whole aspect of the Museum, that that is not 

 what is undertaken by the Museum. 



1186. (Mr. Spri)ig Bice.) I wanted to ask a question 

 about the arrangements recently made as to givintr 

 scientific advice to the Board of Agriculture, the arrange"^ 

 ments of which you are acquainted with ? — Yes. 



1187. The Trustees have been good enough to allow 

 you to advise the Board of Agriculture on the zoological ' 

 side of Toroblems which arise connected with agricul- 

 ture? — ^Yes. 



1188. And you probably know that a similar arrange- 

 ment is being made with Keiw. as regards the botanical 

 side ? — ^Yes. * 



1189. Do you anticipate that that division will im- 

 pede you in discharging that part of the work which you 

 have undertaken to perform ? — Do you mean the removal? 



1190. I mean simply the separation. The Govern- 

 ment has asked the British Museum people to do the 

 zoolosv, and Kew to do tho botany ; do you anticipate 

 any difficulty in that division of function? — ^No. I do not. 

 I suppose you mean that the questions very often inti- 

 mately relate both to a plant and to an inspct. 



1191. I conceive that they m'ight do so, and that is = 



