106 



DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON BOTANICAL WORK: 



Sir W. T. *s they are now ? — ^Certainly, but it is a luxury rather 



Thiselton- than a necessity. If I had been a member of this Com- 



Dyer, mittee, the question to consider, I should have thought, 



K.C.M.G., would have to be this; — that inasmuch as it is ex- 



F.E.s. ceedingly difficult to get from Her Majesty's Govern- 



^ ment funds for scientific purposes, ?th& question is 



'^^ '^'^' whether the maintenance of two independent collec- 



tions is so necessary as to require both to be kept up. 



I should look upon it as a purely administrative and 



financial matter. 



1308. {Sir John Kirk.) Referring to the work you have 

 done and are doing at Kew for the various Departments 

 of the Government connected with our Colonies and Pro- 

 tectorates, I suppose it woiild be quite impossible for you 

 to carry on that work if the herbarium were removed from 

 Kew ? — Absolutely. 



1309. Nor could you assist the Board of Agriculture 

 in the way you have been doing if you were deprived of 

 the herbarium ? — In 1899, at the request of the Board 

 of Agriculture and with the sanction of the Treasury, 

 in view of the abolition of the post of technical ad- 

 viser to the Board, Kew undertook its technical work 

 as far as it is purely botanical. 



1310. (Chairman.) Is it worth while going into this? 

 It is hardly germane to the inquiry, is it? — 'Yes, it is 

 rather important, because it is an illustration of the mode 

 in which the work of Kew grows. At. any rate we 

 tooik over the work, and that work cannot be done with- 

 out our cryptogamio colledtionis. This sum^mer there 

 has been a neiv disease in the swede, which has been 

 the subject of research at Kew, and which at one 

 time seemed to be likely to assume very considerable 

 importance. 



1311. (Mr. Seymour.) With regard to the administra- 

 tion of your vote, have you a free hand within the Hmils 

 of your vote as to the arrangements you make at Kew 

 youTseif, or have you to get the agreement of the First 

 Ck)mmissioner of Works ? — The arrangement is rather 

 peculiar. The arrangement is tfefined in a, somewhat 

 ambiguous way by a Treasury minute. 



1312. {Mr. Spring Bice.) Do you refer to the one of 

 July, 1872? — That is the one. As I have stated in 

 the memorandum, there is occasionally a good deal of 

 unnecessary friction between myself and the Office 

 of Works, arising, I think, from the fact that my relations 

 to the Board have never been properly defined. Prac- 

 ■tically what the Treasury said in that minute was that, 

 •with regard to science, the Director must have a free 

 liand, but with regard to the administration he is sub- 

 ordinate to the Board ; and that is the general principle 

 on which I endeavour to work. OccasionaJly the Board 

 will take it into its head to jib at some scientific expendi- 

 ture, and then we have more or less of a row. For 

 ■instance. Sir Henry Primrose disliked museums, and he 

 used to squabble with me over museum specimens, and I 

 did not think it was within his competence. Lord Esher 

 has recently taken the same course, with the same 

 result. Practically yoa will see the heads of adminis- 

 tration in the memoranduim. 



1313. (Mr. Seymour.) Anything that comes within 

 the sum that you have in the vote to spend for scientific 

 purposes you can spend practically without consulting 

 anybody else ? — ^Tes. At page 89 of the memorandum 

 you will see : " F. — Maintenance 1 and 2, General works 

 on lawns, walks, and shrubberies, flower beds, palm 

 stove, plant stoves and greenhouses ; (a) materials, (b) 

 labour, (c) horse and cart hire, (d) purchase and repair 

 •of imTilements," totalling up to £9,230. They do not 

 interfere with me about that. Then " 3, Lodges, palm 

 houses, etc., and 4, water supply" — that is not under 

 me at all ; that is under the surveyor of the Office of 

 Works, llip Office of Works take all the work which 

 they themselves understand out of my hands. 



1314. That is the general line yoa go on, and you keep 

 all that within the bounds of your estimate under the 

 different sub-headings ; you deal with scientific matters, 

 and they deal with administrative matters ? — ^Well, you 

 will not call erowing red Geraniums scientific, but thev 

 give me practically a free hand with regard to technical 

 matters, and they take care of the repairs of the build- 

 ings and 130 on. 



1315. Do they do that without your asking ? — I have a 

 resident clerk of the works, and we work together. Of 



■course, yon cannot turn a gang of workmen into a house- 

 ful of valuable plants at a moment's notice. It requires 

 some e^vo and take, but on the whole it works now very 

 smr-*^^hi.\r. 



131^. In i\. letter to Mr. Jackson yrju said, "It is of 



< 



the deepest moment to India and the colonies that the 

 botanical assistance Avhich the home country can supply 

 to them should not be impeded by defective organisa- 

 tion for affording it." I was going to ask you : Does 

 that mean that at present your organisation is not 

 sufficient to enable you to keep up with the demands 

 made upon you? — 1 think it does fairly. I have nothing 

 to complain of. What I meant there was to express a 

 general opinion that if the present arrangements were 

 upset that work on its present basis could not go on. 



1317. That was supposing it was contemplated to take 

 away anything at present connected with Kew ? — ^Yes. 



1318. You say in your printed statement that you are 

 borne on the Colonial Office list? — I do not know 

 whether I used the expression, " borne " on it. I said 

 that the Colonial Office list included a reference which 

 gave a sort of quasi-recognition. 



1319. As you have now been officially noticed by the 

 Colonial Office by the inclusion of an account of the 

 establishment in the Colonial Office list, that does not 

 imply in any way that the Colonial Office has any 

 jurisdiction over you at all ? — No, ft is a quasi-official 

 recognition ; that is all. I only drew attention to it for 

 what it was worth. 



1320. A quasi-official recognition of what? — Of the 

 utility of Kew work to the Colonial Office. You will see 

 it on page 83 of my memorandum. 



1321. (Professor Balfour.) Will you let me ask you a 

 question, which is one of those I intended to ask you, on 

 what you said just now would be the point of this inquiry, 

 namely, do you think it is a right thing that there should 

 be two such botanical establishments kept up at such 

 distances to one another as Kew and the British 

 Museum ? — No, I certainly do not. But as I said, per- 

 sonally, I think that is a matter for the central govern- 

 ment. An official is not like a professor. I do not 

 think it is becoming for an official to criticise the pro- 

 ceedings of his masters, and I think I have said some- 

 where that if the Government thought fit to have a 

 dozen botanical establishments I do not think I ought to 

 point out any objection to that course. The mouths of 

 officials are closed on matters of policy. 



1322. (Mr. Seymour.) Surely if you are sent here or 

 come here to answer questions put you by persons 

 appointed by the Government, your mouth is open to ex- 

 press an opinion ? — I have asked for leave to give 

 evidence on this point and have been refused. 



1323. (Professor Balfour.) As a botanist can you ex- 

 press any opinion that you cannot express as an official ? 

 Can you give any information on this subject ?— I do not 

 think so. 



1324. There is one point in your statement which I 

 do not quite understand. It has to do with furnishing 

 of information, and you say on page 67 : " This con- 

 venient mode of furnishing information is. however, 

 often frustrated by the neglect of the Stationery 

 Office to print sufficient copies to meet the demands of the 

 public." How do you requisition for the publication.? — 

 I have nothing to do with it. I produce the manu- 

 script, and the Stationery Office do what they like, and 

 if the numbers ran out of print they decline to reprint 

 them. 



1325. Do you not state the number that you think 

 should be printed ? — I have nothing to do with that. 



1326. (Mr. Spring Pice.) Are you aware that the 

 Stationery Office profess themselves quite ready to issue 

 a second edition if they have reason to think there is a 

 reasonable public demand for it?— -That is a counsel of 

 perfection. 



1327. You are aware that they do so? — ^Yes, but I do 

 not attach any value to the statement ; I clo not believe 

 they mean to do it. 



1328. Is that a statement that you wish to go on the 

 notes ? — ^What I should like to go on the notes is this : 

 that I have drawn their attention repeatedly to the fact 

 that they are not meeting the public demand, as I find 

 by evidence addressed to me, and I have not observed 

 that any result has followed that intimation. I snould 

 like that to go on the notes. 



1329. (Professor Balfour.) Supposing that fhfi trans- 

 ference of the British Museum herbariimi was made to 

 Kew, do you anticipate there would be much saving of 

 expense in that to the Government?^ — ^You see, these are 

 not matters that concern me in the smallest degree. I 

 understand that the building at South Kensington for 

 the botanical department, from a rough calculation I have 

 made, has cost scnLething like £150,000. Thaib is, 1 



