MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEK BEFORE THE 



■^'March 1904.J 



Sir Thomas Elliott, k.c.b. 



[Co-ntinued. 



Ch airmn ?i — continued. 



18. Will you put in the report of that deputa- 

 tion ? — I shall be pleased to do so. 



19. Parliament has made several attempts. 

 has it not, to legislate upon this question ? — 

 Yes, on several occasions. 



20. Perhaps it is not necessar}' to go at 

 length through them, hut as a matter of fact 

 there have been Bills in seven sessions of Parlia- 

 ment ? — Yes, commencing from the Ses.sion 

 of 1895. 



21. The last of which was a Bill introduced 

 by Mr. Ritchie in 1900, read a second time, and 

 referred to a Select Committee of the House of 

 Commons ?— Yes. 



22. That Bill was not further proceeded with, 

 in consequence of the report of the Committee ? 

 —Yes. 



23. What was the part of the report which 

 recommended that the Bill should not be further 

 proceeded with ? — The Select Committe reported 

 m the first place that it was proved beyond 

 doubt that there was a very serious diminution 

 of the supply of certain kinds of flat fish, par- 

 ticularly m the North Sea, that the evil was a 

 growing one, and that in default of a remedy the 

 consequences to the fishing industry in the 

 diminished supply of flat fish would at no verj' 

 distant future oe disastrous. The Committee 

 also thought that it was established that there 

 were certain well known areas in the Xorth Sea 

 where small fish undoubtedly congregate, and 

 that to prevent fishing in such areas would be 

 of great value. The Committee were of opinion 

 that one of the causes of this diminution of the 

 supply was undoubtedly the destruction of im- 

 mature fish. The Committee felt, however, that 

 it would not be expedient to pass the Bill 

 without further inquiry and investigation, 

 especially as to whether the prohibition of the 

 sale of fish below the limits proposed in the 

 Bill would make it no longer worth while for 

 fishermen to resort to places where the small fish 

 abound, and as to the particular sizes proposed 

 to be prohibited. They also suggested that the 

 precise position of foreign law m regard to re- 

 strictive legislation and its results should be 

 ascertained. And thev referred particularly to 

 the case of the United States. 



2-i. Since then a good deal of additional 

 information has been obtained, has it not ? — 

 Yes, since the report of the Select Committee 

 of 1900, the v-arious suggestions made by 

 the Select Committee have been investigated 

 liy the Board of Trade, and more recently 

 at the hands of the Board of Agricul- 

 ture and Fisheries; with the result that 

 the present proposal is now submitted to Parlia- 

 ment. 



25. And it is with the object inging out 

 those additional facts, that this Committee has 

 been desired to investigate the subject ? — I 

 believe that is so. 



26. I Avill ask another Avitness later on for the 

 detailed statistics, but can you briefly say what 

 are the new circumstances which have arisen 

 since the report of the Selein Committee of 

 1900 ? — In the first place the two Boards have 

 been able to make improved arrangements for 

 the collection of statistics. We are now in 



Chai 



rman- 



-continued. 



possession of information, although only for 

 the year 1903, of the take of fish in the 

 Xorth Sea as distinguished from the take of 

 fish L'lsewhere. There has also been during- 

 that period a classification of plaice into what 

 is known in the trade as large, medium and 

 small plaice. We have also received informa- 

 tion as to the particular grounds and par- 

 ticular areas in the North Sea from which 

 fish have been caught by the great trawling 

 fleets. Then, in addition, special investi- 

 gations have been made at Billingsgate 

 Market, with the assistance of the Fishmongers 

 Company, with a view to determine the pro- 

 portions of the various sizes of plaice which have 

 been landed. In addition, communications 

 have been made with foreign powers as to the 

 possibility of international action, and a Council 

 of an international character has been estab- 

 lished for the express purpose of investigating 

 the conditions^ of the North Sea. The Board of 

 Trade have also, as desired bj- the Select Com- 

 mittee, placed before Parliament in a Parha- 

 mentary paper published in 1901, full informa- 

 tion as to the restrictive legislation in foreign 

 countries, and the Board of Agriculture and 

 Fisheries have since obtained some supple- 

 mentaiy information which I shall be able to 

 submit to your Lordships' Committee. 



27. Have you got a summary of what the law 

 is in Continental countries ? — Yes, I have it 

 here. 



28. Perhaps you wUl add that of the United 

 Stales of America, which was particularly re- 

 ferred to by the Select Committee of 1900, as 

 being legislation that we had no information 

 about ? — I shall be glad to do so. 



Lord Tweed'inouth 



29. All the statistics to which you have been 

 referring onb,' date from last year ? — 1903 was 

 the first year in which we obtained separate 

 statistics as to the take in the North Sea. 



30. But these statistics have not been long 

 enough for any conclusion to be come to with 

 regard to the diminution ? — No, we have, as yet, 

 no comparative tables of the take in the North 

 Sea. 



Cliuirman. 



31. You were going to refer, I think, to the 

 legislation in foreign countries ? — I can place 

 before the Committee an abstract of restrictive 

 legislation in all the countries bordering on 

 the North Sea, with a summary of the replies 

 which have been sent to us in response 

 to the enquiries we have addressed to foreign 

 Governments through the Foreign Office on the 

 subject. 



32. You have studied the proposed Bill, and 

 perhaps you will point out to the Committee 

 what are the special features which are aimed at 

 in this Bill, and in what way its proposals differ 

 from the proposals laid before Parliament by Mr. 

 Ritchie in 1900 ? — The previous Bills on the sub- 

 ject have definitely laid down a limit of size for 

 soles, plaice, turbot and brill. The Bill now 



before- 



