MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 



3 March 1904.] 



Sir Thomas Elliott, k;c.b. 



[Continued. 



Cha iniia n — continued. 



a certain size wherever caught and under what- 

 ever conditions they were caught. 



44. Whereas under the Bill as now before the 

 House those limits might be varied in accord- 

 ance with the places where it is expected the 

 fish would be taken ? — Yes. If 1 may be 

 allowed to say so the idea was that it is not 

 necessary, in order to protect the small fish in 

 what are known as the eastern grounds, to 

 penalise the boj'^ who catches a small fish fi-om 

 the pier head. 



45. Then that would be best attained, would 

 it not, by deciding what class of vessels should 

 be prohibited from landing undersized flat fish ? 

 — Yes. The vessels we should have to deal 

 with in the first place would be the great steam 

 trawlers and the carriers which bring the fish 

 from the trawling fleets to markets in this 

 country, which, by resorting to the so-called 

 nursery grounds, are undoubtedly productive of 

 a great deal of damage. 



46. If those A^essels no longer captured under- 

 sized fish, at any rate a verj^ large number of 

 the total catch brought now to these islands 

 would be returned to the sea ? — Yes. 



47. And possibly would not be caught at all ? 

 — I think they would not be caught at all ; the 

 object is to prevent these great trawling 

 steamers from resorting to grounds where small 

 fish are very abundant. 



48. And while on the one hand the owners 

 of a certain class of vessels would not wish to be 

 interfered with in catching small fish near the 

 coasts of England, is it not the general desire of 

 the owners of steam trawlers and carriers to 

 which you just referred, that some steps should 

 be taken to prevent them in their own interests 

 from catching these undersized fish ? — Yes ; 

 there is a very remarkable public opinion 

 amongst the representatives of the great trawl- 

 ing industry on that point; they are firm 

 believers in the advantages ot protecting these 

 so-called nursery grounds. 



49. Then there \vill be another important con- 

 sideration, of course, in making Orders under 

 the BiU, and that i.s, as to the period ot the 3'ear 

 to which they should be applicable. Is there a 

 period of the jear during which undersized flat 

 fish are landed in much larger numbers than at 

 other periods of the year ? — Yes. I think that 

 by prohibiting the landing of fish within the 

 months, say, of March or April to June or July, 

 we should deal with the greater part of the evil. 

 \Ye do not hope for perfection, but we should be 

 able to deal ^\-ith the greater proportion of the 

 evil as it were. 



.'0. It would obviously be a hardship to our 

 own fishermen if while they or any of them 

 were prohibited from landing undersized fish in 

 this country, foreign vessels, which could not be 

 prevented from fishing on these grounds, were 

 allowed to land undersized fish in England ? — 

 The Bill, of course, would apply equally to smaU 

 tish landed from foreign vessels as to vessels 

 1 lelonging to our own country. 



51. And it would be within the competence of 

 the Board to make an Order prohibiting the 

 landing of undersized flat tish from foreign 



Chairman — continued, 

 vessels of any size ? — Yes ; under the Bill as it 

 stands we have absolute discretion in that 

 respect. 



52. I thinJi it is desirable that the Committee 

 should have before it all the information that 

 can be handed in. I will not examine you upon 

 it, but perhaps you will hand in what statistics 

 we have obtained of the catch of undersized fish, 

 the vessels engaged in the trade, and the volume 

 of imports of fish into this country ? — Yes, I have 

 a number of statistical tables here, which I will 

 hand in to your Lordship's Committee for 

 printing. 



53. Then there is only one other part of the 

 Bill upon which I think I need ask you to give 

 the Committee your opinion, and that is the 

 clause which provides that the same powers 

 shall be given to the Board of Agriculture and 

 Fisheries ^vithin territorial waters for the 

 making of bye-laws which are now in possession 

 of the Fishery Committees round tlie coast. 

 The v^rhole coast is not under Fishery Commit- 

 tees, is it ? — The whole coast is not as yet under 

 Fishery Committees; there are two somewhat 

 serious gaps, one on the east coast and one on 

 the west coast. 



54. Roughly speaking, shall I be correct in 

 saying that trawling by steam trawlers is prac- 

 tically prohibited within the area of all the 

 district committees ? — To a considerable extent.^ 



55. Will you hand in a copy of the bye-laws of 

 the different Fishery Committees within their 

 respective districts, and can you furnish the 

 Committee with a map showine- what those 

 districts are ? — Yes ; I have here a statement 

 showing the bye-laws affecting trawling fishing 

 made under the Sea Fisheries Regulation Act, 

 and maps have been prepared which will be at 

 the disposal of your Lordships. 



56. And you will also furnish us with the 

 correspondence which has recently taken place, 

 both as to the laws in foreign countries and as 

 to the amount of market that there is for 

 undersized fish in countries other than England ? 

 — Yes, I shall be able to submit some informa- 

 tion under those heads to the Committee. 



Duke of Ahercorn. 



b~i. Where are those places you mentioned on 

 the east and west coast, where the fishery laws 

 are not put into operation ? — One is in the 

 southern part of Norfolk and the northern part 

 of Suff'olk, including Yarmouth and Lowestoft, 

 and the other is a portion of the Bristol Channel. 



58. The big steam trawlers capture a large 

 amount of undersized fish, do they not ? — They 

 do so when they resort to particular grounds. 

 The proportion of course varies. 



59. Would those grounds bo in the North 

 Sea chieflj', or would they also be round our own 

 coasts ? — AATierever j'^ou have shallow water 

 suitable for the development of fish, you have 

 of course the danger of taking large quantities 

 of small fish. 



60. I b<lievc 1 am right in saying that those 

 small fish are always dead before they are taken 

 on board, r)\\-inc to the pressure and want of air ? 



—That 



