MMTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 



a .V«rch 1904.] 



SiK Thomas Elliott, k.c.b. 



[Continued. 



Marquess of Hu n thj — continued. 



-sufficient to keep trawlei-s off those groimds; 

 liut it is possible that ne might have to make 

 the limit 11 inches, so that if we found that 10 

 inches did not answer the purpose in view we 

 should alter that limit then to 11 inches. On 

 the contrary we might begin at 11 inches and 

 lind it quite safe to reduce the limit from 11 

 inches to 10 inches, 



72. Do not you think it woidd be better then, 

 to start with, to lay down certain size limits with 

 regard to these various fish, giving the Board of 

 Agriculture power to reduce them afterwards if 

 necessarv ? 



Chairman.^ Or to increase them i. 



Lord Tweedmovlh.] Xo, xny idea would be to 

 put it rather high and give the Eoard power to 

 reduce it afterwards, tt does seem to me to be 

 at her giving the Board of Agriculture a blank 

 cheque to do what they like. You say yoti pro- 

 pose to make certain regulations Avith regard to 

 size limits, but you do not propose to lay down, 

 to begin with, what those size limits are likely to 

 be ? — In a way that is so : and yet I would 

 suggest that the pressm-e of trade opinion, the 

 pressure of Parliamentary opinion and the 

 pressure of public opinion are quite sufficient, as 

 it were, to write upon yoiu- blank cheque " not 

 exceeding so much." 



73. Then why not put ■ not exceeding so 

 much " into the Bill ? — Because I do not think 

 that the information at our disposal enables us 

 to do it. 



73a. But still it would be an extraordinarily 

 inconvenient thing that this Bill should be passed 

 and you should then fix a limit of some sort, and 

 then a year or two afterwards yoti should change 

 it again ? — If I may s;iy so with gi-eat respect, 1 

 do not think any such inconvenience or difficulty 

 would arise. We are in very close touch with 

 the trade, the trade are well organised, and have 

 every means of bringing information to our 

 knowledge and pressure Xo bear upon us ; and I 

 think the trade and the Board could settle this 

 matter from time to time in quite a satisfactory 



way. 



74. Then you propose really that these Orders 

 should apply only to certain classes of vessels? — 

 Ves, we could discriminate. That is the whole 

 theory of the Bill, that we coidd discriminate, for 

 instance, between the deep sea trawlers and the 

 small net fishermen along the shore. 



75. But then supposing you were to discrimi- 

 nate in that manner, how would yoti be able to 

 say that a particular small fish had been caught 

 by a small shore fisherman or by a small trawler 

 round about the shore, and had not been caught 

 by a big trawler ' — The bulk of the fish is landed, 

 of course, by carriers at two or three of the 

 great eastern ports ; there would be no difficulty 

 rbero, becau-e the fish is actually landed from 

 the vessels, which we should describe in the 

 Order, and in the event of any attempt at 

 smuggling small fish being made, I think we 

 could deal with it adniinistrativclv. 



Marquess of H until/ — continued. 



7ti. But I think the general object is to keep 

 fishing vessels off certain particular areas in the 

 Xorth Sea, particularly on the Dutch and Grerman 

 coasts ? — That is certainly the most immediate 

 evil to be grappled with. 



77, And you said, and I quite concur, that it 

 is in certain seasons of the year that these small 

 fish are specially found on these beds. Now, 

 have you turned your attention to the idea that 

 it might be possible to prohibit fishing in those 

 particular areas during two, three, or four 

 months in the year altogether .' — Yes ; we have 

 given very careful consideration to that 

 suggestion, which I think your Loi-dship has 

 made in Parliament from time to time, but we 

 feel that it would be impossible of enforcement 

 — that we cannot tell with any accm-acy whether 

 the fishing fleets and trawlers resort to the 

 prohibited grounds or not. It would require 

 a sj'stem of international policing, whicli I 

 think would be almost impracticable in an area 

 Uke the Xorth Sea. 



78. It would require a convention between 

 the various Powers fishing the X'orth Sea ? — I 

 do not think it is so much the non-existence of 

 a convention that would prevent the proposal 

 being adopted, but that the difficulties of 

 policing would be such as to render the proposal 

 impracticable, however cordially the Powers 

 might concur. 



7 St. But it would be perfectly open then to 

 trawlei-s, under your proposed Bill, to fish in 

 these areas whenever they liked ? — Yes, if thev 

 found it worth their while to do so. 



80. But then has it struck you that it is rather 

 a waste if they go there and fish and catch all 

 these small fish that they should not be able to 

 dispose of them afterwards ? — I do not think that 

 they would, in fact, go there. The suggestion 

 is — and figures will be submitted to your Lord- 

 ships to show — that the value of the small fish 

 that is caught in these grounds is such as to 

 render it no longer worth while for the trawlers 

 to go there if the landing of the small fish is pro- 

 hibited. They naturally seek profitable grounds, 

 and under our Orders those giounds would cease 

 to be profitable. And in that view we are 

 supported by the trawling industry itself. 



81. Would it not be possible, even though 

 you made such a law, to prohibit the landing of 

 these fish here, that they should be able to land 

 them elsewhere ? — Our market is so much the 

 best market that I do not think there would 

 be any substantial danger of our regtdations 

 being fi'ustrated in that way. 



82. Then you propose to apply the Bill to 

 plaice, turbot, brill and soles ? — Yes, those are 

 the fish included in the expression " flat fish " in 

 subsection (4). 



S3. But you do not propose to applj- it to 

 dabs ' — Xo, we should not be able to do so 

 under the Bill as it stands. 



84, Is it desirable to apply it to dabs at all > 

 Are youaware there are a great nurr.ber of forms of 

 da^s which are extremely small and which never 

 grow to any size ? — If I may refer your Lordshijj 

 again to the analog)- of the Diseases of Animals 



Act 



