10 



MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 



3 March 1904.J 



Sir Thomas Elliott, k.c.b. 



[Continued. 



Lord Heneage — continued. 



but we have very carefully examined the ques- 

 tion, and we have come to the conclusion that 

 if you prohibited the landing of fish of certain 

 sizes from certain vessels equipped in a certain 

 way, we should be able to secure the object in 

 view. 



99. Then you do not think it is advisable to 

 take any powers beyond the powers to prohibit 

 landing ? — T think not, and for the reason that 

 Lord Tweedmouth suggested, that when it 

 comes to a question of sale, you cannot dis- 

 criminate as to the place of capture or method 

 of capture ; you cannot say whether the fish 

 has come off a great trawler or, as I said before, 

 has been taken at the pier-head ; and that being 

 so, we prefer to tackle the question of landing 

 and to leave the vendors of fish quite alone. 



100. I only wanted to put the question on a 

 fair footing. The greater part of the fish which 

 are brought to England from the far Norch Sea 

 a,re brought by boats saihng from the Humber 

 ports, are they not ? — That is so. 



101. If those who own those trawlers there 

 are of opinion that smuggling would take place 

 to a very large extent by the transfer of the fish 

 from one boat to another, would it not be rea- 

 sonable to suppose that it would be necessary at 

 some future time for the Board of Agriculture 

 and Fisheries to extend their power to sale ? — Ot 

 course, it is possible that we may be wrong. 



102. I only ask you, in the event of their 

 being right ? — Yes, that of course would be so. 



103. Then is it not advisable to have those 

 powers in the Bill ? — I think myself, and it is 

 the deliberate opinion of the Board, that in con- 

 junction with the officers of Customs and other 

 officers mentioned in the Bill, we should be able 

 to prevent any considerable amount of smuggling 

 in that way. A few fish might be landed, but 

 we are not proposing any counsel of perfection in 

 this matter ; we wish to secure the substantial 

 protection of these nursery grounds. 



104. Then with regard to another question 

 that Lord Tweedmouth asked you, as I under- 

 stood him, with regard to putting a maximum 

 size in the Bill, are you aware that the trade — 

 you of course have had this evidence before you 

 — are of opinion that nothing would be effectual 

 unless plaice under 11 inches, soles under 10 

 and turbot and brih under 12, were forbidden ? 

 —Yes. 



105. They would give power to you to reduce 

 the size, but it is their opinion that unless that 

 was the maximum, or rather I ought perhaps to 

 say the minimum, it would not be effectual. 



Lord Tweedmouth.] It is the maximum size 

 not to be landed ; it is the minimum size to be 

 taken. 



Lord Henecvge. 



106. Are you aware that that is the general 

 opinion of the trade ? — I think that the trade 

 have made as yet no formal representations to 

 us as to the sizes to be taken. They have 

 admitted the desirability ot elasticity in the 



Lord Heneage — continued. 



matter, and the danger of taking any particular 

 size is the danger that was experienced in 1900, 

 that you would frighten some people along the 

 shore, and that you would adopt a compro- 

 mise which is insufficient to secure the interests 

 of the deep sea fishermen. I think there is 

 a general agreement that the size limits in 

 the Bill of 1900, which were in the nature 

 of a compromise between two interests, are 

 insufficient for the protection of the deep sea 

 people. 



107. The sizes in the Bill of 1900 for soles 

 and plaice were 8 inches, and for turbot and 

 brill 10 inches, were they not ? — Yes. 



108. Therefore this is a larger maximum ? — 

 The fact is, of course, that in the Bill of 

 1900 an attempt was made to apply one 

 fixed rule to very varying conditions and in- 

 dustries. 



109. Then I take it you are aware that the 

 trade, whilst desiring to support this BiU as it 

 is, and to give full discretion to the Board, have 

 very fixed ideas as to what will be effectual and 

 what will not ? — I think that though the trade 

 are willing to give us a discretion in this matter, 

 they will take very good care to guide the 

 exercise of that discretion — to influence the 

 exercise of it. 



110. I will not ask you any more on that 

 question. I only wanted to lay a foundation 

 for the evidence that will come hereafter. 



Lord Northhoume. 



111. You stated that the legislation which you 

 propose is very much on the same lines as that 

 with regard to the contagious diseases of 

 animals ? — That is so. 



112. That no doubt now meets with general 

 assent and approval amongst agriculturists ; but 

 how is it regardea by consumers? — I may 

 remind your Lordship that at the outset of that 

 legislation, very serious fears were entertained by 

 the consumers as to its effect upon prices. It was 

 stated in the House of Commons that the effect 

 of that legislation would be to raise the price of 

 meat by a sum of about three pence a pound. I 

 think all thought of any result such as that has 

 disappeared long ago, and that consumers as 

 well as producers see that the health of cattle is 

 to the advantage of both parties. 



113. What degree of opposition would there 

 be on the part of consumers generally to the 

 proposals in a BiU of this kind ? — ^Some appre- 

 hension might be expressed by the consumers 

 Avith reference to this legislation, just as some 

 apprehensions were expressed in the case of the 

 Contagious Diseases (Animals; Acts ; but we feel 

 confident that the final result of measures of 

 this kind would be entirely m the interest of 

 consumers. 



114. Of course all legislation of this kind is 

 of a restrictive character, and you must expect, 

 wherever you have restrictions, that you will 

 also have opposition to those restrictions with a 

 view to extension? — The object of restriction 



being 



