SELECT COMMITTEIE ON THE SEA I'lSUEKIES li.'LL. 



3 March 1904.] 



Mr. James Ingram. 



[( 'onti'iiued. 



Chairman — continued. 



ex-Lord Provost, Mr. Mearns, and Mr. Thomas 

 Walker came as a deputation to the Board of 

 Agriculture and expressed themselves very 

 strongly in tavour of a measure to prevent the 

 destruction of undersized flat fish ? — I think 

 everybody would agree to that if it could be 

 attained. 



436. Your only doubt is whether this Bill 

 will attain it ? — That is my fear, 



^ST. What would you prefer then ? — To see 

 an international agreement to try to prevent the 

 destruction of them. 



438. If you were told that it might be some 

 years before an international agreement could 

 bo arrived at, do you think i^ would be wise to 

 take no steps ? — I think it would be wise to take 

 no steps. Why tie our own hands if the 

 foreigners are allowed free scope ? 



Lord Northhourne. 



439. 



-Yes. 



-I am 



Have you read the Bill ?- 



440. What is the penalty in the Bill ^ 

 sorry I cannot recollect it. 



441. It is 201., I think, for landing a box of 

 undesized flat fish. What would the trawlers of 

 Aberdeen say if they thought they were to be 

 fined 201. for landing a box of undersized fish ? 

 — I am sure of this : That if that penalty was 

 once inflicted it would never occur in their case 



Lord Tweedmouth. 



442. Why would it not occur again ? — 

 Because they would have had demonstration 

 that the landing of undersized plaice was pro- 

 hibited, and they would not run the risk of 

 incurring another 201. tine. 



443. You think it would be very effective ? — 

 I think it would be a deterrent. 



444. But would it prevent them from catching 

 the small fish ? — No, by no means ; they have no 

 option; the fish may come into the net and 

 be afterwards thrown overboard. 



445. Then the effect of these prohibitions in 

 your view would not be to save the life of any 

 undersized flat fish at all ? — Yes, if there were an 

 international agreement as to prohibition. I wish 

 to show you the record of the catches which 

 contained the largest proportion of small fish that 

 came into Aberdeen last summer. I wish to show 

 you.jfrom the fishing grounds ascertained, that the 

 bulk of these undersized flat fish were caught on 

 the Borkum Flats, Horn Reefs, and Jutland Bank. 



446. These are exactly the places that were 

 pointed out to us by Mr. Archer ? — If it was 

 known that there was a prohibition as to the 

 landing of under-sized flat fish, the traAvlers 

 knowing that the bulk of them are found on 

 those grounds would have no incentive to go 

 there, or if they did go in the hope of getting 

 laro^e round fish and long fish, they would throw 

 the small flat fish overboard and bring in only 

 the larger ; but all the same the small ones 

 would have been killed. 



447. Then you do not think it would save the 

 life of small fish ? — Yes, if there were an inter- 

 national agreement; because the boats would 

 not go so frequently to these particular groun'ls 



XO.IO .) 



Lord Tuved mouth — continued. 



448. But supposing it was not an international 

 agreement ? — Then I say it would be of no 

 eftect, in my opinion. 



449. Can you tell us at all what sort of 

 amount of small fish are thrown overboard now 

 by the Aberdeen trawlers ? — They do not speak 

 very often as to that. 



450. They do not sell them ? — No. 



451. Does it ever come to your knowledge that 

 line fishermen and herring drift net fishermen 

 find great masses of these small fish flon,ting on 

 the surface ? — I never heard of it. 



452. I have often been told so ? — But a skip- 

 per told in the case of one of these catches 

 which contained a large proportion of small fish 

 that he threw overboard thirty baskets of under- 

 sized fish on the Borkum Flats. 



453. Do you want to put in some of those 

 returns ? — Yes, I am quite prepared to put them 

 in. 



454. Are there any particular facts that you 

 would give us out of them ? — This one refers to 

 the trawl shots or catches; it shows the 

 vessels with the larger proportions of undersized 

 flat fish, such as would be touched by this Bill. 



455. Would you hand it in to the Chairman 

 that he may look at it ? — Certainly. {Handing 

 in the same.) 



Marquess oiHuntly. 



456. Supposing this question was taken up 

 internationally, and all the countries agreed to 

 it, the objection that you think would be held 

 on behalf of Aberdeen trawlers would be done 

 away with, if it was made an international agree- 

 ment that these breeding grounds should not be 

 touched during the breeding seasons of these 

 small fish ? — I think it is the only way to 

 benefit the fisheries, that is, to leave the small 

 ones until they grow to a size that would be 

 more marketable and profitable. 



457. Then, following that, let me put this to 

 you. This Bill is an enabling Bill to enable the 

 Board to issue these bye-laws. I do not know 

 whether you are aware of it, but it follows upon 

 a conference which was held in Hamburg 

 between the representatives of the various 

 countries concerned, where it was then felt tliat 

 England should take the lead in this legislation, 

 and an indication was held out that if England 

 did the other countries might follow. Does not 

 that take away your objection to the Bill ? It 

 does not follow, although the Bill passed, that 

 these Orders should be issued at once so as to 

 make them too oppressive ; but if it was to be 

 the precursor of legislation which would be 

 acceptable to the other countries concerned, 

 would not that make it more palatable ? — Yes, 

 that is really the point I agree upon in reference 

 to the Bill. If there were an international 

 restriction I think it would be of some effect. If 

 not it would be of little benefit. 



458. Do you think that if it was made so the 

 Aberdeen trawlers would keep away from these 

 grounds when it is pointed out that these small 

 fish are there in the summer months ? — Yes ; 

 thev do not care about going to the 

 it is They go in the hope of getting a 

 proportion ot other kinds. It is too 

 for one thing. 



D 459. 



grounds as 

 large 

 far away, 



