5i; 



MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 



8 March 1904.] 



Mr. James Ingram. 



[Continued. 



Duke of Ahercoru. 



459. Perhaps you know that there might be a 

 j^reat deal of difficult}' in coming to any inter- 

 naiional agreement? — Yes, I apprehend there 

 might be. 



460. Do you know the amount of trawlers as 

 representing England and the foreign countries ? 

 — How many boats in each country, do you 

 mean ? 



461. Yes. — I think I know approximately the 

 numbers. 



462. The number as given in evidence to-day 

 was 1,200 representing Groat Britain and Irelaiid 

 and 2G0 representmg all other countries ? — 200 

 for European countries bordering the east coast. 



463. That being the case, it strikes me that 

 there might be considerable difficulty in getting 

 all the other five countries to join together in 

 any international agreement when there was 

 such a large preponderance of trawlers repre- 

 senting English steamers ? — Yes, I quite agree. 

 The Spaniards, the French and the Belgians are 

 going into trawling very fast, and the French 

 would not, I fear, agree to an international 

 restriction. 



464. Now, if this Bill becomes an Act of 

 Parliament, do ycu think the Aberdeen trawlers 

 would have any other means of getting rid of 

 their small fish ? — If there were no prohibition in 

 foreign countries they might land them there. 

 The distance is less from Borkum Flats and Horn 

 Reef. 



465. But there is a strong tariff into any 

 other countries ; they could not land even ? — 

 Not on fresh fish, I think ; on salted fish, but not 

 on fresh fish, except in France and Spain. 



466. Not in Germany ? — No ; that is my 

 information. 



Lord Heneage. 



467. Up to lately there has been a very big 

 trade both with Germany and with France in 

 flat fish ? — France has taken a great portion of 

 our small skate of recent years. 



468. But now do you know that they are 

 raising a tarifi" against it? — Yes, I understand so 

 in France. 



469. And do you or do you not know that 

 the small fish caught by the German boats are 

 now sent over to England at a reduced freight 

 because they cannot get rid of them in 

 Germany ? — I have never heard of that. 



470. If that were so, it would alter your 

 opinion ? — Yes, that would have a bearing, 

 certainly. 



471. You said just now on behalf of the 

 travelers, that you would object to any legislation 

 unless it was international ? — Yes. 



472. You do not speak on behalf of the 

 owners of the traAvlers in Aberdeen ? — I know 

 that they would not personally object, I 

 point out that the landing of immature 

 or flat fish in Aberdeen has never been a griev- 

 ance ; the quantity is very small. 



il 3. In fact it is only of very late years that 

 the Aberdeen boats have gone so far south as 

 are proposed to be the forbidden grounds ? — 

 Yes only of recent years. 



.■fe,: 



Chairman. 



474. These tables are rather interesting. I 

 have just looked at the numbers of fish brought 

 from the Borkum Flats, as you called them, 

 what we have been discussing in this Com- 

 mittee as the Eastern fishing grounds. I take 

 the case of the first vessel, the " Drumblade." I 

 do not know quite what these proportions are. 

 I see she landed half large, half — what is that ? — 

 Half a cwt. 



475. Half a cwt. of large, 3^ of medium, and 

 94 cwts. of small ? — 94 cwts. of small. 



476. Do you think that vessel would have 

 gone to the Borkum Flats if she could not 

 have landed 94 cwts. of small, and could 

 only have landed the half of large and 3J 

 of medium ? — No. I drew it up to show that 

 that is a prolific ground for that land of plaice. 



477. But yoLi thought they would go to fish 

 on those grounds even if they could not sell 

 those small fish. I ask you, do you not think 

 that a vessel with that catch, half a cwt. large 

 and 3^ medium, would go to those fishing grounds 

 if that was all the catch they could dispose of ? — 

 No. In some cases the vessels came home for 

 wages settlement, after they had been landing, 

 perhaps, in Germany for awhile those catches 

 obtained on the Borkum Flats and Horn Reefs. 



478. It would not have stopped their coming 

 home even if they could not have brought 94 

 cwts. of small ? — No, they determined to come 

 for settlement. 



Lord Tiveedmouth. 



479. About that 94 cwt, how smaU would 

 the smallest fish be ? — That is a shot or catch 

 of what they call the " ivy leaves." 



Chairman. 



480. Then we come to the " Loch Ryan." 

 The " Loch Ryan " apparently caught no large 

 and no medium, but 56 cwt. of small ? — Yes. 



481. Fishing 20 miles N.N.E. of Borkum Flat. 

 Do you think that if they could not have 

 landed those 56 cwts. they would have gone on 

 to those grounds ? — They brought them in. 



482. But if they could not have landed them 

 do you think they would have gone to that fish- 

 ing ground ? — I think not. 



483. Then take the " Balgownie " ; she landed, 

 I see, I cwt. of large, 4-J cwt. medium and 3 cwt' 

 of small. Do you suppose she made a profitable 

 voyage ? — Not at that rate. 



484. If she had not caught 16| cwts. medium 

 of haddocks and 22 cwts. of large, which I 

 imagine she did not catch off that place, she 

 would not have paid expenses ? — No. I may say 

 that at that season last year. May and June, round 

 fish were at a low price, and the effort then was to 

 get flat fish; they were the only paying class. 

 Hence the voyages of these ships to Borkum 

 Flats. 



485. On the other hand, there were some very 

 profitable voyages carried out 300 miles north- 

 east of Aberdeen and 310 miles east by south- 

 east from Aberdeen, not to these banks at aU ? 



310 miles east by south is much the same 

 ground. 



486. 



