38 



MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 



iMarrh 1904.] 



Professor D'Arcy W. Thomphox, c.b. 



[Continued- 



Chairman — continued. 



you suggest ? — Not a large proportion of that 

 money. We spend a certain amount of this 

 money in Scotland in this way ; but on the other 

 hand, one must remember that the machinery for 

 obtaining statistics, so far as I am at all aware, 

 is with us very nearly complete. "We get nearly 

 all the statistical information that is humanly 

 possible at present. 



646. Did I correctly understand you to say 

 that you are doing everything that you now can 

 at the Scottish Mshery Board to obtain those 

 statistics? — ^Very nearly everything that is 

 possible ; but we fall short of being able to 

 demand information as to the place of capture ; 

 ;ind if we got that, if the skipper were bound to 

 lill up a schedule showing where he had been, that 

 would multiply our information fourfoldat least. 



647. Are you aware that much information of 

 that kind is being obtained by voluntary efforts 

 of the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries and 

 the trawlers in England ? — I am quite aware of 

 that fact. 



Duke of Abercom. 



648. Have foreign nations the power of obtain- 

 ing these statistics which you wish for this 

 country' ? — I am not sure how far they are com- 

 pulsor}"^, but I know that in Germany at the 

 present time, in the great harbour of Geeste- 

 mtinde every skipper on coming ashore hands 

 in a schedule ; but whether it is compulsory or 

 whether he is doing it by voluntary co-opera- 

 tion with the scientific bodies I cannot say. 

 But I know that these statistics, voluntary 

 or otherwise, are checked by the fact that the 

 German fishery cruisers report every fishing 

 boat met with on the high seas, and these 

 reports are afterwards compared vdih the 

 schedules which have been sent in by the 

 skippers. So that on the whole the Germans 

 have extremely accurate information all the year 

 round as to the place of fishing of their various 

 fleets, and indeed of aU their boats. 



The Witness is du-ected to withdraw. 



Mr. GEORGE DOUGHTY (Member of the House of Commons), is Examined, as foUows :— 



Chairman. 



649. You are, I think. Member for Grimsby, 

 «re you not ? — Yes. 



650. And you have been intei'ested in this 

 question for a niunber of years ? — Yes. 



651. And you represent a constituency which 

 is perhaps more interested in it than almost any 

 other in England ? — Yes. 



652. Do you know the views of the Grimsby 

 fish merchants on this subject ? — I know the 

 views that have obtained amongst a large pro- 

 portion of them for a number of years, but I 

 would not hke to definitely express an opinion 

 on the merits of this Bill until they have had 

 an opportimity of discussing it. 



653. We shall, no doubt, have an opportimity 

 of hearing then- views when they are called 

 before the Committee?— Yes. So far as I am 

 concerned I am afraid that imless I had an 

 instruction from my constituents I could not 

 support this Bill in its present form. AU the 

 legislation that they have been aiming at up to 

 the present has been, of course, by statute^ that 

 -& certain hmit in the size of fish was to be made 

 law. But it would appear by this Bill that 

 •normous powers are to be couterred upon the 

 Board of Agiiculture and Fisheries, and it would 

 seem to me that, practically speaking, the pros- 

 perity or otherwise of the fisheries, as far as the 

 deep sea fisheries are concerned, is going to be 

 vested in this Department in the futm-e. As to 

 how far that is a -wise step, and how &r my con- 

 stituents would be prepared to go in that matter, 

 I am not at the moment prepared to say. 

 My own view is that I am afraid 

 the powers asked for are very much 

 more than I should be prepared to support, 

 because it seems to me that it might be possible 

 for orders to be made which might confer 

 advantages on one section of the fishery to the 

 disadvantage of the others. And we have a 

 very powerful illustration of that in the action 

 of the Scottish Fishery Board, and one which is, 

 as far as Grimsby is concerned, almost a daily 

 illustration. Thev, as vou know, close the Morav 



Cha i I -man — con tmued. 



Firth against all British trawlers, and although, 

 of course, they have no power to prevent foreign 

 trawlers, j^et the fact of their closing the Moraj- 

 Firth gave to the foreign trawlers an enormous 

 advantage in fishing in those waters over the 

 British trawlers. The eftect of the whole thing 

 at the present time Is, that a considerable num- 

 ber of practically English-owned ships have 

 been transferred under the Norwegian and other 

 foreign flags, and ar«j working those grounds and 

 bringing in fish to be sold at the English 

 market. Now it seems to me that it might be 

 possible for the Department to be so influenced 

 by what small sailing trawlers might think > 'f 

 their interest, who probably might be able to 

 convince the Department that the small sail- 

 ing trawler, around the coast and on certain of 

 our shallow waters^ was not seriously injuring 

 the fishing grounds, and it might be possible 

 that they should be excluded by the Depart- 

 ment from the operation of the provisions and 

 powers that your Department might put for- 

 ward. If that Avere so, while it mi^t look 

 very nice on the surface, it would ^ give to 

 these people an exceptional opportunity of 

 enriching themselves by fishing at certain 

 periods of the year, especially soles, on certain 

 shallow gi-ounds, at the expense of the great 

 deep sea fisheries. I should like to sav that 

 durmg the last two years my mind, to some 

 extent at least, has been a little disturbed on 

 that question. Two years ago I took consider- 

 able interest in the matter when the question 

 was before a special Select Committee of the 

 other House ; but during the last two years 

 there has been an enormous catch of fish in the 

 North Sea. I shotdd say it could be proved that 

 never in the history of fishery has there been so 

 much fish caught and to be caught in the North 

 Sea as during the last two years, and the 

 Professor who has just spoken has indicated, I 

 think, that fact by some statements he has 

 made, particularly that in respect to small 

 haddock. The small haddock has bien very 



abundant 



