SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SEA FISHEEIES BILL. 



'11 



4 March 1904.J 



Mr. DoutiHTY (Member of the House of Commons). 



[Continued. 



Lord Heneage — continued. 



690. But there has been a great reduction in 

 plaice ? — Well, that I do not know. Those are 

 the figures for the whole of the United 

 Kingdom ? 



691. Yes ? — I was speaking more particularly 

 of Grimsby. I have not seen the figures for 

 1903. 



692. With regard to this Bill, your objection 

 is not to stopping the catch of undersized fish, 

 but to the large powers which are proposed to 

 be given to the Board of Agriculture and 

 Fisheries, which you think might be used in a 

 way detrimental to certain portions of the trade ? 

 —Yes. 



693. One of your reasons, I believe, is that if, 

 tor instance, the prohibition was limited to steam 

 trawlers, the sailing vessels would immediately 

 be produced in large numbers, and would go into 

 the very grounds the steam trawlers were pro- 

 hibited from going to ? — Yes. Take the Brixham' 

 trade for instance, the whole of the ships practi- 

 cally out of Brixham are sailing ships. At 

 Lowestoft, again, they are nearly all sailing ships. 

 If any regulation of that kind were established, 

 it must be clear at once that great injury would 

 be done to our steam trawling industry. 



694. That is your principal fear, and it is the 

 speech which was made by Lord Onslow in the 

 House of Lords in introducing the measure 

 which has given you that fear with regard to 

 the Bill which you had not before ? — Yes, and 

 the fact that some of my friends in the House 

 of Commons seem to think they are all right — 

 that they will be pretty well safeguarded; I 

 mean those that represent the smaller fishing 

 industries. 



695. But generally you are in favour of this 

 Bill, like the rest of the trade, when we went on 

 that deputation to Lord Onslow which yovi were 

 unable to attend ? — Yes, I am in favour, of 

 course, of some measure of this kind being 

 adopted eventually ; but T wish, first of all, to 

 say tenaciously that I think it should be an 

 International arrangement. 



696. But supposing that it is impossible to get 

 an International arrangement, would it not be 

 better for the trade for England to take the load 

 in a measure which might afterwards become an 

 International measure ? — Well, it might ; that is 

 a question to which I would not like to commit 

 myself. 



697. With regard to the Bill of 1900, you 

 supported that Bill ? — Yes. 



698. Very strongly ?— Yes. 



699. And you would support it again ? — I 

 would, given International conditions. On that 

 Bill we talked a great deal about the necessity 

 for an International arrangement, and I think 

 we had some promise in respect to that. 



700. But your real objection to the present 

 Bill is that under the Orders it might be limited 

 to areas and limited to certain kinds of vessels ? 

 —Yes. 



701. Whereas, if it was a uniform Bill, like 

 the Bill of 1900, it would practically be for the 

 whole trade ? — Yes. 



702. That is really your objection ? — Yes, 

 certainly. 



703. And with regard to the opposition which 

 the President just mentioned to you just now to 



Lord Heneage — continued, 

 the Bill of 1900, you believe that there was prac- 

 tically no opposition at all except from a small 

 handful of Members ? — That is so, and, of course, 

 the Government were not prepared to give time 

 to fight the thing through the House, they were 

 prepared to put the Bill through if it could be 

 put through in a night. 



704. But you believe that if such a Bill was 

 proposed now it could be easily passed, if it was 

 intended to be passed ? — I believe so ; I think 

 there can be no dbu.bt about that. 



705. Therefore you would prefer such a Bill 

 to this Bill — that is your point ? — I would, cer- 

 tainly. 



706. But supposing the Government do not 

 think from their information that such a Bill 

 could be got through, do j'ou object to this ten- 

 tative legislation ? — I must allow the trade 

 that I represent to speak on that subject. 



707. As a matter of fact, so far as you know, 

 in Grimsby now they are in favour of the Bill ; 

 they are going to send representative witnesses 

 here ? — I do not think they are in favour of this 

 Bill. I only give that as m}^ opinion — I do not, 

 know. 



708. Is that since the Bill was printed ? — 

 Several of those who have spoken to me on the 

 question have expressed their opinion on this 

 very point that I have been trying to raise. 



709. That is to say, that they prefer the Bill 

 of 1900 ?— Yes. 



Lord ISforthbourne. 



710. You think this Bill is rather too drastic ? 

 — I would not like even to say that. It is these 

 enormous powers that are going to be conferred 

 on the Department which I do not like. We 

 are going to hand the whole trade over, so to 

 speak, to the Fisheries Department, which is 

 most excellent ? — I do not find one word of 

 fault with it, but still they are great powers to 

 give. To give the Department power to differ- 

 entiate between one class of trader and another, 

 is to give a very great power, which may work 

 very detrimentally and very disastrously to our 

 interests. 



711. Would it lead to a large increase in the 

 number of officials ? — I would not make 

 any objection to that. I do not think Par- 

 liament has spent anything like enough money 

 on official Departments for the benefit of 

 trade. 



712. I asked a witness yesterday from Aber- 

 deen if a fisherman was fined 201. for bringing 

 in a box of undersized fish, what would happen ; 

 and he said he was quite certain that such a 

 case would not occur a second time. How 

 would that be in Grimsby ? — Well, in the first 

 place the fisherman would not pay the 201. ; the 

 owner of the ship would have to pay the 201. 



713. What effect would that have? — I believe, 

 of course, that if an Act of Parliament were 

 passed the fishermen generally, and the trade 

 generally, would loyally abide by it, and do their 

 best to carry it out, undoubtedly. They are a 

 law-abiding people. 



Chairman. 



714. There is undoubtedly a very lar^.-o 

 F number 



