M 



MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE 1S% 



10 March 1904.] 



Mr. E. W. L. Holt. 



[Continued. 



Lord Northboume — continued. 



think any sole at any stage of his existence can 

 eat another. They are bottom -feeding creatures, 

 except in the very earliest, minute stages ; 

 when they have attained adult form they live on 

 worms and shell fish and the hke. 



1172. Then, notwithstanding all these disad- 

 vantageous circumstances that tend to destroy 

 the balance ot nature in these animals, you think 

 a measure of this kind is necessary lor the 

 preservation of a sufficient quantity of edible 

 food ? — Yes, my impression is that the fish has 

 in nature, without the interference'of trawlers, 

 quite enough to do to keep his species up ; and 

 the balance would appear to have been upset by 

 human agency, and may conceivably be re- 

 dressed by the same. 



1173. Could you conceive it possible that the 

 fishing industry would be on such a large scale 

 that they would be absolutely destroyed ? I 

 suppose the oyster may be said to have "been at 

 one time in risk of destruction by excessive 

 take ? — They have been absolutely and entirely 

 destroyed in many beds in Ireland where for- 

 merly they were most abundant. 



1174. Ajid can you conceive that the same 

 thing might be possible with flat fish imless 

 some measure of this kind is passed ? — I think 

 there is a certain amount of evidence that flat 

 fish have been destroyed as a commercial 

 fishery on certain ground.s. 



Chairman. 



1175. May I take it that in effect the byelaws 

 within the territorial waters round Ireland are 

 very analogous to those in effect around the 

 territorial waters of England ? — ^Yes. 



1176. Have you any knowledge of the ton- 

 nage of the smallest vessels which go to fish in 

 these eastern grounds? — Forty or fifty tons, 

 according to my recollection. 1 do not know 

 the Lowestoft tonnage. I think it is about 40 

 tons. Mr. Cunningham knows it well. 



1177. It has been suggested to the Committee 

 that the statistics in connection with the size of 

 fish are not so complete as they might be, and 

 that if masters of sailing vessels were compelled 

 to make returns of the fish they bring in, their 

 size, and where they caught them, and were paid 

 for so doing, we should gain a great deal of light 

 upon the subject, which at present is somewhat 

 obscure. Could that be done in Ireland ? — Most 

 of the steam trawlers at work from Dublin 

 already do it for us; the sizes are roughly 

 classified, but they give us the grounds and the 

 approximate numbers of the catch taken on each 

 ot the grounds. The expense is extremely 

 small. 



1178. You find it of material value ? — Yes. 



The Witness is directed to withdraw. 



Mr. JOSEPH THOMAS CUNNINGHAM, F.Z.S.,- is called in; and Examined as follows :— 



Chairinan. 



1179. You are Master of Arts and a Fellow of 

 the Zoological Society, I think ? — Yes. 



1180. And you have given considerable study 

 to this question of the sizes of fish, and written 

 several works and pamphlets and papers upon 

 the subject ?^Yes. 



1181. The Bill of 1900 had, you may recollect, 

 a fixed limit, which for plaice was 8 inches. In 

 your opinion would that be sufficient to make it 

 not worth while for trawlers to go to the eastern 

 grounds ? — No, according to my experience at 

 Grimsby and on the eastern grounds themselves 

 it would make no difference to the practice of 

 the fishermen; it would make scarcely any 

 difference to the value ot the catches which they 

 land. 



1182. What size would make a difference ? — 

 I think the least size which would make a 

 difference to the practice of the fishermen would 

 be 10 inches for plaice. 



1183. Did you hear the evidence given by 

 Mr. Holt ?— Yes. 



1184.. Do you agree that there are two races 

 of plaice ?— Yes, I think I may claim credit for 

 that as my discovery in the North Sea — that 

 there are two local races of plaice or local forms 

 within the limits of what is generally called the 

 North Sea. According to my observations, the 

 characters ^vith regard to the size at maturity 

 and the maximum size that the plaice attains in 

 the southern part of the North Sea south of the 



Chairman — continued. 



line between Norfolk and the Texel, are the same 

 as in the plaice of the English Channel ; that 

 is to say the English Channel plaice really ex- 

 tend up to the Texel, and the larger North Sea 

 plaice extend southwards to that Tine. 



1185. Therefore, in your opinion, it would be 

 desirable, in the interest of an increase of the 

 number of sizeable fish, to commence at any rate 

 by endeavouring to preserve these undersized 

 plaice of the larger race ? — Certainly, I think it 

 IS most desirable. 



1186. The locahty of which is easily distin- 

 guished ? — The locality is certain. I mean it is 

 certain that these small plaice of the larger race 

 are found on what the fishermen know as the 

 eastern grounds. Whether they are found 

 beyond that or not is another question, of 

 course, but they certainly are found there, tak- 

 ing the eastern grounds as extending all along 

 the German and Danish coasts in the Heligo- 

 land bight, as far west as seven degrees. 



Lord TweedTnouth. 



1187. Can you distinguish between an 8-inch 

 plaice of the smaller race and an 8-inch plaice 

 of the larger race ? — I do not think it would be 

 possible. The characters by which the}- are 

 distinguished are really based upon the ex- 

 amination of a large number ot snecimens 



^nerally 



