68 



MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 



10 J/rtrc/tl904.] 



Mr. J. T. Cunningham, f.z.s. 



[Continued. 



Lord Northhourne — continued. 



in the plaice is about 800,000, and the number 

 in the sole is a little greater. 



1245. I think a witness last week said it was 

 less in the flat fish than in the others ? — The 

 Jiumber varies very greatly. The turbot is one 

 of those that have small eggs, which are exceed- 

 ingly numerous. The turbot has about 8,000,000 

 eggs. The plaice's eggs are very large, compara- 

 tively. (The actual number varies from 400,000 

 to 750,000 according to the size of the sole.) 



1246. Then if you had such an immense 

 number of eggs, how many pairs would be re- 

 produced from a single pair in a single spawn- 

 ing season ? How many of these eggs would 

 .come into existence ? — Do you mean what would 

 be the size of the family ? 



1247. Yes, if you like to put it like ihat ? — 

 Out of the 300,000 eggs you cannot tell how 

 many would survive; there would be a large 

 percentage of loss in the egg condition, and what 

 we call the larval condition ; but there must be 

 several thousands of young, perfect plaice, two 

 or three inches long, produced by one, I should 

 think, to make up for the enormous destruction 

 that goes on of the old ones. 



1248. I could not understand the witness last 

 week — I do not know if you saw the question 

 which was put to one of the scientific witnesses 

 last week, who said that not more than two at 

 the very outside would come into existence, 

 would reach maturity. I could not follow that 

 at all. I should think the case you are putting 

 before us now is much more intelligible — that 

 several thousand, you think, would come from a 

 single sole ? — That is rather a stock argument, I 

 think, amongst biologists with regard to a single 

 pair. It means that if a species in nature is in 

 a condition of stationary population, not increas- 

 ing and not decreasing, it is obvious that it is 

 only necessary, supposing each individual to 

 reach maturity, for each pair to produce another 

 pair in order to keep the population stationary; 

 that if they produced more the population would 

 increase. 



1249. My only object in asking these ques- 

 tions at this time is that it is the belief of many 

 people, and I suppose you would admit, that 

 there is not a great deal known of what goes on 

 under the sea, that at all events there is still a 

 great deal to be ascertained and known ? — Yes, 

 but I think we know a great deal more than wu 

 did 20 years ago. 



1250. And that the reproduction of these 

 animals is on such a scale that no matter what 

 may destroy them, the balance of nature is 

 pretty certain always to be preserved. But you 

 would not quite accept that. You think that if 

 by means ot men, fishing is carried on to such 

 an extent that the destruction of these fish goes 

 on, the time will come when, if not absolutely 

 destroyed, the industry will be very much de- 

 pleted ? — Yes. I think the supply or fish on the 

 old grounds is getting less year by year. 



Lord Heneage. 



1251. From a scientific point of view you 

 made rather a point of the tact that in your 

 opinion there are two distinct kinds of plaice, 

 f>ne originally bred in the North Sea and the 

 other coming from the Channel. Is there any 



Lord Heneage — continued, 

 difference in their conformation and their size, 

 or is it only from the fact of the different periods 

 at which they come to maturity that you judge 

 of them ? — So far as my observations go, the 

 maximum size corresponds to the size of 

 maturity, that is to say, the North Sea plaice 

 reach a much larger maximum of size than the 

 Channel plaice. 



1252. Then it is only because the fish come to 

 maturity at a certain size that makes you of 

 opinion that there are two distinct species of 

 plaice, or are there any other reasons ? — There 

 are other aifierences, but they are not constant 

 for each single individual. You cannot take one 

 individual and say, " That is a Channel plaice," 

 and another and say, " That is a North Sea 

 plaice " ; but if you examine carefully a thousand 

 individuals, measure their different charac- 

 ters and tabulate them statistically, you find 

 that the averages are different in the two 

 samples. 



1253. Then it would not be possible for 

 ordinary fishermen or Custom House officers or 

 anybody else to know the difference ? — No, it 

 would not be easy. Very often a fisherman, 

 from the general appearance of the fish, can say 

 with wonderful accuracy where they have been 

 caught, but they would not look at these 

 characters I am speaking of, but at the general 

 appearance. 



1254. Might not the difference of time of 

 these plaice coming to maturity be caused by 

 difference of locality or difference of temperature 

 of the water ? — It probably is. 



1255. Then they might be really, after all, the 

 same species of plaice, but in different tempera- 

 tures and localities ? — That we do not know ; we 

 do not know whether the differences are pnj- 

 duced in the individual by the place it grows up 

 in, or whether they are hereditary and due to 

 the fact that it comes from different parents. 



1256. Do I rightly understand you that ther 

 might be one limit of size of prohibition for the 

 British and Irish coasts, and a larger size limit 

 for the North Sea ? — I should not like to .say 

 positively about that, because I am not an ad- 

 ministrator. But what I said was rather nega- 

 tive : that if the size was made as large as 1 -2 

 inches for plaice it would, in my opinion, be im- 

 possible to applj^ it to the fisheries of Lowestoft. 

 Ramsgate, and the South Coast. Such a limit 

 as 12 inches could only be applied to the eastern 

 grounds, and the northern part of the North Sea. 



1257 But has there not been for some time a 

 general concensus of opinion that 10 inelie,-; 

 would be a fair limit ? — Yes. 



1258. Do you believe that you can difteren- 

 tiate between trawlers of larger and smaller ton- 

 nage ? — No, not very easily ; I think you could 

 differentiate between steam trawlers and sailing 

 trawlers. 



1259. — We have had the question of an Inter- 

 national Convention brought up during the 

 sitting of the Committee very often ; are you not 

 of opinion that such a Bill as we are now looking 

 into would tend to an International Convention 

 in the future ? — I think it would be better to go 

 into a Conference to discuss International pro- 

 posals with a statement that we had already 



* parsed 



