70 



MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 



10 March 1904.] 



Mr. J. T. Cunningham, f.z.s. 



[Coiitinued. 



Lord 2\ue<rimi > u th — continued, 

 ut' soles and plaice and so on vould be restored 

 in about three years. 



1283. And you think the proposals in this 

 Bill would at any rate increase the proportion of 

 large fish in the sea .■' — 1 am very strongly of 

 that opinion. 



Marquess of Hu ntly. 



1284. In Professor D'Arcy Thompson's evi- 

 dence he gives an account of some experiments 

 as to the death rate amongst plaice. 1 see he 

 says, " of which more than 4,000 were taken, 

 and only 0-12 per cent., or 12iishin 1,0000, ched.' 

 That is a very much smaller rate than 25 per 

 cent. '{ — I do " not understand the conditions of 

 the experiment. 



128.5. I think it was an experiment conducted 

 bv the Scottish Fishery Board ? — Were the 

 plaice picked up upon the deck of the trawler 

 and put into a tank of water ? 



1286. I will read you what he said : " We tried 

 yesterday morning, in order to get a fresh and 

 recent experience outside the Firth of Forth, 

 and found there that after a haul of two hours 

 the cod and haddock were lively on being 

 measured at least one hour after hauling, and 

 the whole of the flat fish were also alive' and 

 well at the end of the hour. I may say that 

 these plaice, which were caught at 10 o'clock 

 yesterday morning, were also alive and well at 

 10 o'clock last night. (Q.) After being 12 hours 

 ow of the water { — i 1.) After being 12 hours out 

 of the water." f — Twelve hour^ on tleek, not 

 being" put into the water at all ? 



12^87. He say.s — out of the water, it must be so. 

 It that is so, if'^the skippers of these smacks could 

 be persuaded or induced to retra-n thest> small 

 plaice to the sea, there Avould be nmch less loss 

 than 2-5 per cent. ? — Yes : but the Avork of the 

 fishermen is so rough, especially iu rough 

 weather, that I put my estimate of the number 

 that would survive extremely low. In stormy 

 weather you sometimes see a whole heap 

 of fish ' mixed up with all kinds of 

 rubbish, sea urchins, and things emptied 

 out from what they call the cod-end. into the 

 pound, where it lies two or three feet thick, and 

 then Uvo or three men go and trample upon it 

 with, their sea boots to see to the gear, and that 

 is rather hkely to be fatal to the fish. 



1288. If Parhament should ever see fit to pre- 

 vent British trawlers fi-om going to the eastern 

 gTounds you seem to think there would be no 

 difiiculty" about it. But it would have to be 

 carried out by means of policing those waters, 

 would it not? — Yes, I presume it would be 

 necessarv to have pohce vessels— gunlioats or 

 vesoels of the na^-y. 



1289. That would be very expensive Avork, 

 would it not ? — Yes. 



1290. And supposing we prevented our own 

 trawlers going to the eastern grounds, and then 

 foreign trawlers were built to g" to them and to 

 find'^a market for the fish abroad, the whole 

 good that we propose would be lost ? — There is 

 always that difiiculty without an International 

 arrangement. Supposing these size limits were 

 impo.M;d for the eastern grounds, the Grimsby 

 owners might decide to fisli on those grounds and 



Marquess of HtnUhj — continued, 

 land all their catches at Geestemtinde on tlie 

 German coast ; there would be nothing to prevent 

 them. 



1291. You are not aware that there is any 

 market abroad for these small fish now ? — I am 

 not aware ot the extent of the market, or 

 whether it is a good market — whether the price 

 is very good. 



Duke of Abercorn. 



1292. Has the sole the same vitality as the 

 plaice ? — According to my experience it has more 

 vitality than the plaice. 



1293. Therefore he is likely to hve longer 

 than the plaice under the same conditions ? — 

 Yes. 



1294. When you mentioned that the trawlers 

 are trawling now in 100 fathoms of water, do 

 you catch any small plaice ? — No, none at all. 



1295. They are all the big class of plaice ? — 

 Practically a'Ou catch no plaice at all ; thej- do- 

 not go so deep as that. 



129(3. What is the average depth for plaice ? — 

 Yery few are found beyond 50 fathoms. 



1297. And the smaller ones live in the shallow 

 water? — Yes; the vast majority of them under 

 15 fathoms; the very small ones imder 10- 

 fathoms. 



129S. And when they become bigger in size 

 they go to deeper water ? — Yes. 



Clai innaii. 



1299. You were asked by a noble Lord just 

 now whether in your opinion it would be 

 desirable that the size limits should vary in 

 accordance with the ditt'erent ports at Avhich the 

 fish were landed, ^^'"ould there be any difiiculty 

 in doing that, if it were found desirable, b}' the 

 Bill now before the House ? — Xo, I do not think 

 there would be any difiiculty. 



1300. And would there he any difiiculty in 

 regulating the size ol the A'cssels so as to prevent 

 any interference Avith the small in-shore fisher- 

 men whom you were describing just now ? — It 

 would be possible, if it were thought advisable 

 in such a case as LoAvestoit, I mean, or in the 

 Wash, to impose a limit, to apply it to deep sea 

 trawlers and not the in-shore fishermen. 



1301. And supposing the tear Avas realised 

 that Lord Huntl}' seemed to entertain, that it 

 might be possible that foreign A-essels Avould 

 continue to traAvl and take aAvay the>e under- 

 sized fish from the eastern banks, Avould it not 

 be possible at any moment for the Board of 

 Agnculture and Fisheries to alter its Order, and 

 again to allow the (rrimsby and Hull people to 

 go and fish on those banks ? — Yes, I think so 

 certainly : and my oavu ide.i Avas, that if our 

 people complained that the Germans and Danes 

 Avere catching all the small plaice Avhich they 

 Avere not alloAved to catch, then the Govern- 

 ment, through the proper channels, could ad- 

 dress to the foreign (lovernment a protest, and 

 that might lead the way t<i an International 

 .arrangement. 



1302. At any rate, by the Bill Ave should keep 

 complete power in our oAvn hands for protecting 

 in the manner avc thought best, the fishing 



i:^".stry ? 



