72 



MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 



10 March 1904.] 



Mr. C. Hellyer. 



[Continued 



Clia innan — continued. 



1321. You would be satisfied if the great 

 majority were preserved ? — That is so. 



1322. And if so, perhaps the difficulties of 

 getting the measure through Parliament might 

 be considered, provided that your object were 

 attained of preserving the great majority of iish 

 in the Nortn Sea ? — Yes. I might say that we 

 fishermen in the North Sea have moved in this 

 matter to protect the fisheries of the North Sea 

 in regard to flat fish, and we recognise that the 

 Bills have failed owing to the immense amount 

 of opposition from these small fishing stations ; 

 and therefore we would be satisfied to attain this 

 object by giving the Board of Agriculture and 

 Fisheries this power, provided that it was not 

 misused — as, for instance, as between Hull and 

 Lowestoft, or between Grimsby and Lowestoft. 

 We certainly should not be satisfied for 

 Lowestoft to have hberty to fish on the eastern 

 side of the North Sea if Hull and Grimsby were 

 prevented from doing so, because there is a 

 general purpose in view ; that is, to replenish the 

 North Sea as quickly as possible. 



1323. As a matter of fact, I understand that 

 there are few, if any, vessels from Lowestoft that 

 do fish on the eastern side of the North Sea ? — 

 That is a commercial matter. 



1324. But 1 am asking you whether that is 

 not the fact to-day ? — -The fact to-day is that 

 the Lowestoft vessels do fish on the eastern side 

 of the North Sea, but further south. 



1325. Therefore, supposing the Hull and 

 Grimsby vessels wove by regulation under the 

 Bill prevented from fishing there, and it was 

 subsequently found that the changed conditions 

 induced the Lowestoft boats to go and fish there, 

 it would then be possible to include the Lowes- 

 toft boats in the prohibition ? — Yes ; but I think 

 they should be included at once. I do not think 

 there should be any distinction made between 

 Lowestoft and the Ilumber, because I ma}^ saj^ 

 if the Hull and Grimsby vessels were withdrawn 

 the Lowestoft vessels would simply slide a little 

 farther north and get these undersized flat 

 fish. 



1326. But it would be perfectly possible to 

 include thein if they did ? — Yes. 



1327. And if they did not, there would be no 

 object in including them ? — Xo, there would not. 



1328. It is perfectly well known to the fishing 

 trade which are these eastern grounds, is it not? 

 — Yes. 



1329. Can j'ou tell me what amount of foreign 

 trawling goes on there ? — It is increasing. Sonic 

 wars back there was no market in Germany or 

 Denmark for these small flat fish. In Holland 

 there was always a trade, because there they 

 dried them and buried them, and dvig them up 

 ,iL;ain at some future time and ate them with 

 their beer. There was always a large trade for 

 salted plaice in Holland, but in Germany espe- 

 cially it is a growing trade. We find now that 

 the German trawlers that used to bring the 

 undersized flat fish to I'^^ngUsh ports have now 

 (■eased to do so : and therefore we judge by 

 that that the trade is increasing through tlit- 

 intL-re-t that is being taken by the German 

 Emperor in fisheri<'s and all fi.shery matters: 

 that is to sa}- that these matters arc 

 being regulated' to the advantage of the 

 fishermen, and n;.> doubt to the ad- 



Chairman — continued, 

 vantage of the German population; and it 

 follows that the fish that used to come tO' 

 England is now retained in Germany. 



1330. Therefore in your opinion it is desirable 

 that we should come to an international arrange- 

 ment that these grounds should not be fished 

 from? — Yes; but first I think it is right and 

 proper that the English people should take the 

 mitiative and carry this thing out and then ask 

 the foreign nations bordering the North Sea to- 

 join them later. 



1331. You think that would put us in a 

 stronger position ? — I think so. 



1332. And you do not see anything in the- 

 Bill which would prevent such an international 

 arrangement ? — No. 



1333. Now, we have been told that there is a. 

 transshipping trade from the Continent' via- 

 Antwerp and Harwich ; is that so ? — That is fio ;. 

 there is a very large trade carried on by 

 scooties or snibs from Esjberg, on the south 

 side of Horn Reef, which is a Danish port. 

 These boats congregate there and fish from 

 there on the south side of Horn Reef. They 

 have sheds and facilities for packing those- 

 fish, which they send up by rail and ship^ 

 across by the passenger boats to Parkstone and 

 Harwich, and also direct from other places to^ 

 London. Those fish are coming into London all 

 the year through more or less. 



1334. How are they landed ? From what 

 vessels ? — They are landed from the steamers, I 

 believe, which land at Parkstone, and they come 

 up by rail from there. 



1335. Then, of course, it would be perfectly 

 competent to make an order which would 

 prohibit the landing there of that kind of fish 

 from that kind of vessel ? — It should be so, of ' 

 course. 



1336. I should now like to ask you a few 

 questions as to the value of these catches of 

 undersized fish. We have been told that in 

 1892 the value of the total catch of the fleets on 

 these grounds was 69,988^, and of the small 

 plaice, 50,241^., that is to say, that a balance 

 of something like 20,000L was all that was 

 caught of large fish. Is it your opinion, if 

 those figures are correct, that it would be 

 worth while for vessels to go to the eastern 

 grounds if they could not sell the 50,241?. worth 

 of small plaice? — As owners of steam trawlers 

 working the single boat system, we do not from 

 Hull go and catch the undersized flat fish. I do 

 not suppose there have been 20 tons of small 

 plaice landed in Hull during 1903 ; but in the 

 summer time, in April, May, and June, the fleets 

 working in that neighbourhood, if the fish falls 

 .short, take the vessels close to the shore and 

 catch the undersized flat fish in order to get the 

 time along when they may be able to get flat fish 

 outside again. During four months of 1903 the 

 Red Cross fleet worked in April, ^lay and June, 

 and the first week in July, amongst these under- 

 sized fish, and the average price realised for those 

 fish was about 6s. 6d. per box of S4 lbs., that is 

 three-quarters of a hundredweight, in the London 

 market. The average price for prime fish mixed 

 with a httle offal was II. Bs. lOd. 



i:^37. Wbiit was the vali if of the total catch, 

 during those months ' — The total catcl^of prime 

 fish was 4,712 boxes, which realised 6,076?. 



1338. Can 



