78 



MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEX BEFORE THE 



10 Afarch ] 904.J 



Mr. C. Hellyee. 



[Clint htued 



Lord Xorthbou rnc — continued. 



diately to his own pocket for this week and 

 next week ; he will not consider the general 

 benefit that will come in a jear or two. 



1409. He takes a very short view of life ? — 

 \'es — " It will last my time." 



1410. That is the opposition you think tbat is 

 most serious ? — I think so. 



Chairman. 



1411. There is only one question I should like 

 to ask you, and that is with reference to the in- 

 crease of the German trawlers. Is it not the 

 fact that although they increased up to a cer- 

 tain point, in the last two years there has been 

 a fa llin g off in the number of German trawlers ? 

 — I behave they have not increased at the same 

 ratio. It is a new business, of course, in Ger- 

 many entirely. We from Hull and Grimsby 

 used to send all the needs in regard to fish to 

 Germany ; we used not to smuggle them in, but 

 to disguise the fish ; that is, the fish must not 

 be gutted. Then those fish could be sent to 

 Germany, and they were considered to be the 

 product of Germany. But since then they have 

 gone in for steam trawlers ; and the capacity of 

 the country, I suppose, will only take so much 

 fish and naturally the business is not very 



Cliairman — continued, 

 progressive, the people have not that enterprise 

 themselves, and consequently it is a stagnation 

 affair with them ; at least, it is not progressive now. 



Lord Kortlibournc. 



1412. Do 3'Ou know anything about the 

 steam trawling industry on the Tjme ? — Yes ; it 

 is just a branch from Hull. They are all 

 branches from Hull and Grimsby. 



1413. In numbers and importance how does 

 it compare with HuU and Grimsby ? — There is 

 no comparison. Hull itself catches over one- 

 third of the trawl fish of this country, and it 

 catches more than the whole of Scotland and 

 Ireland put together by 300,000 and odd cwts. 



1414. jDo you know anything of trawling at 

 Ramsgate ?-^Yes, I know Ramsgate. Ramsgate 

 was made into a fishing place by Brixham 

 people gradually migi-ating to the North Sea, 

 and a certain nmnber remained, but verj'^ few. 

 They just fish in the Chagnel between there 

 and France. 



1415. They do not go into the North Sea 

 much ? — No ; they do not go into the North 

 Sea much. They are very small vessels. 



The Witness is directed to withdraw. 



Mr. GEORGE LOWE ALWARD is called in ; and Examined as follows : 



Chairvian. 



1416. I think you are a member of the North- 

 Eastern Sea Fisheries Committee, are you not ? 

 — Yes, I am. 



1417. And 3-0U have been deputed by the 

 chairman and members to give evidence on their 

 behalf ?— Yes, I have. 



1418. Are you also coimected with the fishery 

 industry in various branches ? — Yes, 



1419. Have you ever spent any time at sea 

 as a practical fisherman ? — Twenty years. 



1420. This question of the diminution of flat 

 fish in the North Sea and the remedies for it 

 have occupied the attention of the fishing in- 

 dustry for manj' years ? — Over 20 years.'- 



1421. Do you believe there has been a dimi- 

 nution ? — Yes, I think without a doubt we have 

 all come to that conclusion. 



1422. And from what cause ? — From over 

 fishing; concisely speaking, it is really over 

 fishing. 



1423. In any particular part of the North 

 Sea ? — First of all in our original old fishing 

 grounds. We denuded those, and found less 

 year by year as time went on. We then dis- 

 covered new grounds, with, in process of time, 

 the same result. In going back originally, say 

 to about 1830 up to about 1890 we found, at 

 ground after ground, after being fished for a few 

 years, the same results ; the fish became scarcer 

 and Sf'arcer. 



1424. Have vc>u seen and read the Bill which 

 is now befnre ParUament ' — 1 have. 



142-5. Do you think if it is passed into law it 

 will have the effect of presei-ving some of the 

 unflcr.sizcrl fish which aro at pi-oscnt destroyed ? 



Chairman — continued. 



—I think the object of the Bill appears to hav^ 

 that purpose. 



1426. Do you think it would be well to have 

 a defined size limit in the Act of Parliament, or 

 to have it left to the discretion of a Government 

 department to vary that size limit in accordance 

 with the experience obtained under the Act ? — 

 If the department had in its mind a uniform 

 size for all places, then leave it in the discre- 

 tion of that department ; but if it has in its 

 mind a varying size, according to different 

 localities, I sav put definitely in the Bill a size. 



1427. But you remember the Bill of 1900 ?— 

 Yes, I do. 



1428. I had proposed a limit of 8 inches 

 for plaice. Would that be sufiicient in your 

 opinion ? — It is not sufificient, as decided by the 

 whole of the fishing trade, but I think we 

 accepted that as a first instalment by way of 

 getting prohibition. 



1429. And then you would proceed by a 

 further apphcation to Parliament, if it wa.s 

 found necessary to raise that limit ' — I should 

 agree if you fix the size. I have always said, 

 get the thin end of the wedge in, and when you 

 have got the size limit fixed at all by an Act ot 

 ParUament, then, of course, experience must be 

 brought to bear as to what the exact size should 

 be ; but amongst ourselves we have alreadj^ dis- 

 cussed that for 1.5 years, and decided it, I think, 

 some years ago. 



1430. How many years is it since legislation 

 upon this subject was first introduced into Par- 

 liament ? — I could not say quite. 



1431. AVas it 1895 ?— Probablv it w.i# [ have 



