86 



MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 



10 March 1904.J 



Mr. A. B. Capps.. 



{Continued. 



Duke of Ahercorn — continued. 



1565. What happens to those undersized 

 "fish ? — They are not such great sinners as the 

 steam trawlers. 



1566. But they are minor sinners ? — Yes, but 

 the sailing trawlers avoid them as much as 

 j)ossible because they are hardly worth the 

 trouble of catching. 



1567. But they do catch a considerable 

 amount proportionately ? — They kill a certain 

 -quantity, but not so much in proportion as the 

 .steam trawlers. 



1568. The object of the Bill is to prevent the 

 destruction of those undersized flat fish ? — 

 Yes. 



1569. Therefore if these sailing vessels kill a 

 certain proportionate amount surely they ought 

 to come within the provisions of the Bill ? — All 

 the fish that the Lowestoft trawlers catch are not 

 very small. There are a certain number they 

 "would sort out if they went to the trawling fleet. 

 The impression of our men is that if they threw 

 fish over into the water again they would come 

 there dead, and would have a tendency to pollute 

 the water and destroy the fishing ground. I am 

 noL a practical trawler, but I have been connected 

 with drift fishing all my life, and an experience 

 •of the pollution of grounds is that, provided a 

 train of our nets should go to the ground with 

 herrings, after a time the herrings will abso- 

 lutely flee from that ground, and we do not get 

 herrings on that particular spot again for some 

 considerable time. The trawlers in our part have 

 naturally come to the conclusion that if it is 

 detrimenial to one industry for dead fish to be 

 -on the ground it must be detrimental to the 

 •other. But I come here more for the longshore 



fisherman. I think it they were excluded from 

 the Bill they could not have any objection. But 

 no doubt if these powers were given it would 

 ;practicall3' starve these men. And you must 

 understand that it is the interest of the Crovern- 

 ment to maintain a certain number of these 

 longshore fishermen, because they are all Naval 

 E,eserve men. We have pretty well 1,000 

 men engaged in this longshore fishery 

 in one way and another, and now in 

 Lowestoft alone I believe we have over 

 600 men belonging to the Naval Reserve. 

 A great number of those longshore fishermen 

 belong to the Naval Reserve, and if you go to 

 drive them into some other capacity to earn 

 their livelihood, you will then diminish your 

 Reserve men. 



1570. And increase the supply of small fish ? 

 — That is questionable. Ibeheve the steam 

 trawlers have been more destructive in propor- 

 tion than the sailing trawlers, and jou know 

 they destroy the big fish, and if you destroy the 

 parents no children can be born. There is quite 

 as much to be said against over-fishing for big 

 fish as over-fishing for small fish, because if you 

 destroy the parents there cannot be any children. 

 I know it can be used in argument that if you 

 •destroy the children tliere cannot be any parents, 

 but if there are no big fish, they cannot breed 

 little ones. 



I 1571. What do you consider the size of an 

 undersized fish at Lowestoft i — I agree that an 

 8-inch fish would not be objectionable. I think 



Duke oi Ahercorn — continued. 



it would be accepted by the trade as far as 

 selling is concerned. The clause in this Bill 

 you see, prevents the landing : that is the dras- 

 tic measure in it. If a man wishes to bring any 

 fish home for his family, you say you will not 

 let him, he must throw it overboard or get rid 

 of it in some way ; and I feel confident that if 

 they throw a quantity of small fish overboard, 

 especially on longshore grounds, it will pollute 

 the grounds, and will not only destroy their 

 shrimping industry, but I believe will be detri- 

 mental to the young fish themselves. You must 

 understand that a certain number of those fish 

 get smothered when they get down into what 

 they call the cod-end of the net ? — I have seen 

 a quantity of small fish killed in that way. 



1572. Do they destroy many undersized 

 soles ? — Not a great quantity ; sometimes they 

 scarcely see a sole, but at other times they may 

 get about 30 or 40 or 20 or 30 soles of about 8 

 or 9 inches. 



1573. I suppose that 15 or 20 years ago the 

 supply of soles ofi:' Lowestoft was greater than it 

 is now ? — Yes, I admit that. Then, again, we 

 know you cannot stop the march of progress, 

 but I believe it is resulting from the steam 

 trawlers. They overfish the grounds themselves, 

 no matter whether for small or large fish ; the 

 catching power is so destructive. 



Lord Northbourne. 



1574. Would you kindly tell me whom you 

 exactly represent here ? — The longshore fisher- 

 men. 



1575. Who are the longshore fishermen? — ■ 

 They extend from Lowestoft to Aldborough 



1576. How far is that ? — About 40 miles. 



1577. How many of them are there ? — I 

 should think there are between 500 and 600 

 that work those boats. They have sons and 

 other people dependent upon them. 



1578. Do the boats belong to them ? — Yes, 

 small boats. 



1579. What is the size of the boats ? — From 

 about 15 to 25 feet keel; they are open boats, 

 some lugger and some cutter rigged. 



1580. What sort of tonnage are they ? — They 

 do not go by tonnage : about 8 to 10 tons. 



1581. I thought you said you had some 60 

 tons ? — Those are the big trawlers. 



1582. But you do not represent those?— No, 

 I do not represent them, but I know what the 

 trawling industry is. They will be represented 

 here, and they will speak for themselves. 



1583. You represent what you call the long- 

 shore fishermen ? — Yes. 



1584. They have a long net with which ihey 

 catch those shrimps ? — No, it is a miniature 

 beam trawl. I suppose the net is just about 

 20 feet long and about 12 or 15 feel beam. 



Duke of Ahercorn. 



1585. What is the mesh ? — It is very small ; 

 the small end of the net is not more than a 

 quarter of an inch square. # 



1586. Do 



