102 



MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 



11 March 1904.] 



W. H. PiBEL. 



[Continued. 



Lord Nortlibourne — continued. 



1931. Are you speaking merely of yourself? — 

 Those are the principal places that I get my 

 supplies from. 



1932. At all those places the trawlers bring 

 the fish in and sell it by auction, and we and 

 other merchants buy it, and our men repack it 

 and send il up to London. And also at Fleet- 

 wood, that is a large fishing port I had for- 

 gotten. 



Clicurinun. 



1933. Is it not the fact that upon many occa- 

 sions m Billingsgate the dealers have been willing 

 to give away their fish, and people had not been 

 found who thought it wortn while fetching it 

 away ? — That is so. If you will allow me to saj- 

 so, there is a Mr. Fegan, who has a home for boys 

 and I supply him with fish once a week, and they, 

 have told me it is no use sending them small 

 fish, they would rather be Avithout it; it costs 

 too much to cook it ; so that I can never send 

 them small fish ; I am always obliged to send 

 them cheap large fish. 



1934. Is it not the case that some institution 

 was offered these fish for nothing and would not 

 take it away ? They said, " No, we will take it if 

 you send it to our door, but we cannot send and 

 fetch it — it is not worth the carriage ? — I heard 

 something of that sort, I think. 



1935. You said that the law was not strictly 

 enforced in France as it should be. May that be 

 to some extent because there is no such law in 

 England ? — I think that has a great deal to do 

 with it. 



1936. And do you think the French fishermen 

 would say, " It is very hard if I am to be fined 

 for selling small fish when these perfidious 

 English are carrying them oft' wholesale to their 

 own markets " ? — That is the feeling ; they see 

 vessels going down there to catch fish off the 

 French coast. 



1937. I think you said in reply to Lord 

 Heneage that if the Moray Firth had never 

 been closed we should have heard very little 

 objection to this measure. Is it not the fact 

 that the principal Scotch fishing industry is that 

 of line fishing ? — Yes, it used to be. 



1938. Excluding the Aberdeen trawlers? — 

 No, it is not the principal industry in Scotland ; 

 that is altogether the herring fishing. 



1939. But I mean as regards trawling — if you 

 compare trawling and lining ? — I suppose there 

 are many more men engaged in the Imingnow ; 

 but not so many as there used to be ; it is not 

 such a big thing as it was. 



1940. It is a diminishing trade ? — Yes. 



1941. But in closing the Moray Firth in the 

 interest of line fishermen, is it not the fact that 

 the authorities were really acting in support of 

 the majority of the fishing industry of Scotland 

 per head ?— Yes, per head", certainly. But it was 

 not the closing of the Moray Firth that they 

 objected to : tliey think that the Board should 

 have made inquiries first to see il tliey 

 could close it against foreigners as well as 

 Eno-lishmen. What I think they were lax in is 



Chairman — continued. 



that they closed it without maldng proper 

 enquiries. 



1942. And you think the Board of Agriculture 

 and Fisheries is not likely to take any action 

 without consulting its clients ? — Not from what 

 I have seen of them. 



[The Chairman here observed that he agreed 

 with me.] 



Duke of Abercorn. 



1943. You complain of the large amount of 

 undersized fish that you cannot get rid of in 

 your market. Supposing these small fish were 

 protected, would not the chances be that within 

 a couple of years they woidd be sent to your 

 market in much larger size and perfectly fit for 

 food ?— That is so. They would be. 



Lord Heneage. 



1944. May I put this one more question to 

 you ? I want to have this quite cleared up about 

 the Moray Firth, as it has been a bone of con- 

 tention for some time, The real point is not 

 that the Scotch Fishery Board closed the Moray 

 Firth against trawlers, but that they closed it, 

 and used their authority to close it against 

 British vessels when they could not close it 

 against foreign vessels ? — That is so ; we presume 

 they did it without proper inquiry. 



1945. Therefore, there is a feehng, not only in 

 England but in Aberdeen, that there was an 

 unfair difference made between the two classes 

 of vessels ? — That is so. 



1946. That is really the burden of the com- 

 plaint ? — I once said to a Dutchman Avho sent 

 his vessels to fish in the Clyde, " It seems rather 

 an unfair thing," and he turned to me and said, 

 " While you English are such fools as to let us 

 do it you cannot blame us." 



1947. Then I will ask you one more question 

 as regards that. Is there not at the present 

 moment, at Grimsby especially, and at the 

 Humber ports, a great sense of regret for the 

 abuse that is now being made of the Norwegian 

 Mag by English boats going under the Norwegian 

 flag to get these fish in the Moray Firth because 

 they cannot go under the English flag to get 

 them ? — That is so, they do go there. 



1948. And the respectable owners of trawlers 

 do not like that state of facts ? — No. 



Chairman. 



1949. Where are the fish that they get sent 

 to ? — To Grimsby ; they take a foreign skipper 

 and pilot. 



1950. Would it pay them to do that if they 

 could not laud those fish in England or Scot- 

 land ? — Yes, they would probably land them in 

 Ostend, and we should probably buy them 

 there, as we have done many a time. 



Duke of Ahcrcom. 



1951. Under what flag would ihey do it ? — 

 Undev any flag they chose to fly. 



The AVitness is directed to withdraw. 



