T16 





17 MurcJi 1904] 



Mr. Gabstang. 



[Continued. 



Chairman — continued. 



2154. Have j^ou ever inquired into what was 

 the average catch of the old sailing trawlers ? — 

 Yes. 



215-5. Have you enquired into the average 

 catch of the present steam trawlers ? — Yes. 



2156. What proportion should you say should 

 sailing trawlers bear to steam trawlers; how 

 much more does the steam trawler catch than 

 the sailing trawler ? — The conclusion I arrived 

 at was that the catching power of a steam 

 trawler relatively to a smack of a constant size 

 has varied through a term of years, has increased 

 in fact, owing to the fact that the size and 

 efficiency of the steamers themselves has 

 increased in that time and that the gear used 

 by the steam trawler has itself greatly increased 

 in catching power. I mean the substitution of 

 the otter trawl for the beam trawl has caused in 

 itself a great increase in the catches of the steam 

 trawlers. Consequently the conclusions that I 

 arrived at were, that whereas the catching power 

 of a steam trawler compared with a large 

 deep sea smack would be about four to one some 

 twenty years ago, it is more like eight or ten 

 times the catching power of such a smack now. 



2157. Therefore is your theory that the fish in 

 the sea is as abundant as ever ? — I say it is not 

 iny theory ; I merely say it has not been proved 

 that they are not as abundant. 



2158. If it has not been proved that they are 

 not as abundant you would naturally expect 

 that the steam trawler would catch eight times 

 as much as the old sailing trawler ? — Yes. 



2159. And if it were proved that it was not 

 the case, that they did not catch more than 

 about t^vice as much as the sailing trawlers, 

 w ould it in any way tend to shake your opinion 

 that the fish in the sea have not diminished in 

 numbers? — The whole thing has been under- 

 mined in an argument of that sort by considera- 

 tion of the fact that the annual catch of the 

 individual boat is no longer a measure of the 

 abundance of fish on the grounds, but is itself 

 influenced by the quantity of fish being taken at 

 the same time by other boats. 



2160. May I take it from you then, that you 

 liave no opinion really to offer to the Committee 

 as to the abundance of fish in the sea at the 

 present time ; that there is no evidence before 

 you which enables you, to come to a conclusion 

 upon the point ? — My view is that the evidence is 

 conflicting; it has not yet been determined what 

 amount of the annual decline in the average 

 catch is due to a declining abundance of fish on 

 the grounds, and what amount of that decline 

 is due to this factor caused by the excessive 

 multiplication of fishing boats. 



2161. Do you expect that from time to time 

 -additional evidence will come forward and enable 

 you to express a decided opinion upon it ? — Yes; 

 there is a great amount of evidence now being 

 collected, both from England and other countries, 

 of a statistical and experimental character, 

 which will enable these questions to be decided 

 quite definitely in a short term of years. 



2162. Do you think it would be less desirable 

 to proceed in legislation by way of a hard and 

 fast line or in the experimental manner which is 

 suggested in the present Bill?— I think there 



Chairman — continued. 



are distinct advantages in, the elastic powers 

 which are proposed in the present Bill, because 

 I myself hold, from the evidence that I have at 

 present, that the problem is, not the same for 

 different classes of fishing boats; for the steam 

 trawlers which fish in the northern parts of the 

 North Sea and for the smacks which fish in tlie 

 southern parts of the North Sea. Although the 

 nurseries for flat fish for both those fisheries are 

 on the eastern Continental grounds, yet the 

 problem is not quite on the same footing. In the 

 case of the most eastern grounds.roughly speaking 

 those on the west coast of Denmarlc and 

 Germany, the chief fishing is carried out by the 

 steam traAvlers, not exclusively, because all the 

 Danish fishing boats are sailing vessels, and there 

 is a good fleet of German trawlers, which are 

 also sailing vessels : but on the other hand the 

 great bulk of fish from that region is captured 

 by steamers. Now the nurseries of the 

 southern grounds, those which are fished over 

 by the Lowestoft and Ramsgate smacks and 

 a gTeat fleet of Dutch smacks, and so on, are 

 also on the Continental grounds; but they 

 are situated, so far as we understand at the 

 present time, further south along the Dutch 

 coast; and although these two fishing grounds, 

 the grounds for the steamers and the grounds 

 for the smacks, have this property in common, 

 that their chief nurseries for flat fish are on the 

 continental shores, yet the most intense fishing 

 on the northern nursery — that is to say, the 

 Horn Reef grounds — is carried out by English 

 steamers ; whereas it cannot be said that in the 

 southern area the fishing on the small fish 

 grounds is carried out most intensely by the 

 English boats. And my point is that if a 

 regulation is passed that the English smacks in 

 the southern area are not to fish on those small 

 fish grounds off the Dutch coast, or if a size 

 limit is imposed which makes it impossible for 

 them to fish on those grounds with any profit, 

 the only result will be that a large number of 

 fishing-boats belonging to Dutch and Belgian 

 nationalities will carry on the fishing on the 

 nurseries as much as before, and, owing to the 

 intensity with which fishing operations are now 

 carried on, they will themselves increase their 

 own catches in proportion as the English boats 

 do not participate m the fishing. 



2163. Do you know the proportion oi English 

 trawlers to foreign ? — It is given in various 

 official reports ; I do not remember the figure 

 exactly. 



2164. It is something like ten to one, is it 

 not ? — No. So far as the smacks are concerned 

 in the southern area between the English and 

 Dutch coasts, I should say there are about 

 350 or 4uO English smacks, and quite the same 

 number of Dutch and Belgian boats ; so that the 

 consequence is that the fishingpower of England 

 and the fishing power of the Continent in that 

 southern area is about equal. I admit that in 

 the northern grounds, that is to say, on the Horn 

 Reef Grounds, there is now a preponderance of 

 fishing power in favour of England, that is to 

 say, English steam trawlers are there in greater 

 numbers and catch the greatest quantity of fish. 

 I have been at some trouble to try and determine 



what 



