lis 



MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 



17 March 1904.] 



Mr. Garstang. 



[Continued. 



Chairman — continued. 



2170. Can you tell us the total of the Germau 

 steam trawlers ? — The total of the German steam 

 trawlers is about 120 or 130. The total number 

 of English is of course something like 1,200, 

 about 10 to 1 ; but the value of the figures I have 

 submitted is that they show that a far larger pro- 

 portion of the German vessels than of English 

 fish on the Horn Reef grounds. 



2171. They are nearer home ? — They are 

 much nearer home, and they have a greater 

 chance. Anyhow the fact remains that a greater 

 proportion of German vessels are fishing on 

 those grounds than English vessels. Con- 

 sequently we cannot argue, as regards the 

 intensity of fishing on these grounds, from the 

 fact that the English steam trawlers are ten 

 times as numerous as the Germans, that there- 

 fore we fish ten times as much on those grounds 

 as the Germans. On the other hand, these 

 figures seem to me to show that we fish 

 very little more than twice as much on these 

 Eastern grounds as the German vessels. 



2172. But is not the remarkable thing, not 

 that the Germans fish there more than than we 

 do, but that we should be fishing there at all ? — 

 Yes, and I am coming to that now. The point 

 is that we have now a Bill which proposes to 

 give power for placing a size limit which would 

 make it unremunerative for British steam 

 trawlers to fish on those grounds. 



2173. You hold that it would do so ?— It 

 depends entirely on the limit. 



2174. On the limit of size ? — Yes, the 

 effective size. 



2175. But you are not prepared to give us an 

 opinion upon that ? — No, I am not prepared to 

 give an opinion as to what size limit should be 

 adopted now ; but I am assuming that if the 

 Board have got the powers they will impose an 

 effective size limit. 



2176. And you are not prepared to say what 

 in your opinion an effective size limit would 

 be? — I wrote to Sir Thomas Elliott to ask 

 whether evidence was to be given upon that 

 point, and T was informed that he thought the 

 Committee would not consider it. 



2177. The Committee have considered it; but 

 if you say that you are not prepared to express 

 an opinion upon it, I do not wish to press you. 

 — I am not prepared to give a definite limit. I 

 can give an approximation, if that is of any 

 value ; but ot course our investigations are only 

 beginning. 



'2178. Will you say what limit in your opinion 

 would be insufficient to protect the Eastern 

 grounds ? — I am quite of the same opinion that I 

 was in 1900, that an eight inch limit would be 

 useless as a protection for those Eastern grounds. 

 I held the view then that an eight inch limit 

 would be quite useless, but that a twelve inch 

 limit would be useful, that is to say, would be 

 effective ; and I consider that that has been 

 demonstrated already by our investigations. 

 But as to the precise limit, whether it should be 

 ten inches or eleven inches, that is to say, as to 

 the precise minimum limit which we ought to 

 adopt, I think the investigations should go on 

 for another vear before we ought to be asked to 

 express a definite opinion. But somewhere 



Chairman — continued, 

 about ten or eleven inches I think would 

 probably do a great amount of good. 



2179. But supposing you were wrong or we 

 were wrong, there is nothing in the Bill tO' 

 prevent our altering the limit the very day we 

 found out we were wrong. — No, and so far the 

 Bill is good, in that it gives power to the Board 

 to amend its own regulations. T quite approve 

 of that, so long, of course, as the limits are based 

 upon accurate investigations continued during- 

 the period. But my point is, if I may revert ta 

 my former arguments, that owing to the inten- 

 sity of fishing nowadays, it is admitted by the 

 English Inspectors of Fisheries, and foreign 

 authorities also, that the catch of a trawler does 

 not any longer depend only upon the abundance 

 of fish on the grounds and its own fishing 

 capacity, but it depends also on the number of 

 other boats fishing. Consequently, if there are 

 only twice as many Enghsh boats fishing on the 

 Horn Reel gi-ounds as there are German, if you 

 remove ah the English trawlers from fishing on 

 these grounds, it is practically certain that the 

 German vessels will increase their catches in the 

 same proportion ; that is to say, no purely 

 national limit or national regulation at the 

 present time will really arrest the destruction of 

 small fish. 



2180. Not if it were applicable to foreign 

 vessels as well as English ? — I said a national 

 limit ; I mean a national limit purely for Eng- 

 lish vessels. 



2181. But if there were a limit applying to- 

 foreign vessels ? — I am coming to that ; that, 

 forms the second point in my argument. A 

 limit which is only applicable to English vessels- 

 might do some good m arresting the destruction 

 of fish on the eastern grounds, but it would not 

 be really effective until the large number of 

 German vessels which are fishing there, and 

 have these grounds within their easy reach are 

 also under the same restrictions. 



2182. Would you carry that argument sofarasto- 

 say that the German vessels would catch as many 

 undersized fish as the British and German 

 vessels put together do now ? — No, I think it is. 

 practically certain that they would not catch 

 quite as many, but it is already admitted by 

 those who have inquired into the matter, that, 

 their catches would be increased if you took 

 away any other fishing vessels, so that, while 

 being as anxious as anyone to assist in effective 

 legislation which will really improve the fisheries,. 

 I feel that this point is worthy of consideration,, 

 whether we shall not be to some extent de- 

 luding ourselves if we hope that a permanent 

 settlement will be arrived at if we merel)' regu- 

 late the English fishery. 



2183. Do you know whether German vessels 

 which are bound by a limit, undoubtedly a 

 small limit, land those fish under the size which 

 is prohibited in Germany, or do they throw 

 them overboard ? — The German limit is exceed- 

 ingly small. 



2184. Seven inches ? — I have a copy here of 

 the Geestemunde statistics which are almost 

 exclusively steam-trawler statistics, and they 

 show that the landings of small plaice aru very 

 large compared with the landings of medium 

 size and large plaice. We have been verbally 



* informed 



