SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SEA FISHERIES BILL 



129 



17 March 1904.] 



Mr. Gakstang. 



[Continued. 



Marquess of Huntly — continued. 



in what I may call the technical education of 

 the fisherman in future. I think a good deal 

 pould be done if there were a number of technical 

 institutes for training the fishermen in the chief 

 fishing ports where the youngsters, the lads, 

 could be taught these things, and shown practi- 

 cally by lectures, and so on, how important it is 

 not to be wasteful in their methods, and in that 

 way, gradually, without any legislation, a feeling 

 of greater care might arise in the fishermen 

 themselves. I do not see how it is possible to 

 force them to be careful. 



2296. Not to force them, but to encourage 

 them by giving premiums ? — There is a question 

 as to funds then ; it is so difficult to get money 

 out of the Treasury for any purpose, that I should 

 think they would find it difficult to give it for 

 that. 



Lord Tweedmouth. 



2297. Am 1 right in assuming that your long 

 experience of sea fisheries has caused you to 

 form an opinion that there is a distinct depletion 

 in the fish in the North Sea ? — I have formed an 

 opinion that there is a distinct depletion in general. 



2298. And does that apply to all fish ? — No, it 

 applies to the more sedentary fishes — those fishes 

 that live within the North Sea area itself and do 

 not migrate out of it, especially to those fishes 

 that can be caught by trawlers at all periods of 

 the year in their younger as well as their older 

 stages. Take the haddocjk and cod. There is a 

 good deal ef evidence to show that those fishes 

 do not live in the North Sea the whole year 

 round, they immigrate into the North Sea at 

 certain periods and emigrate. Consequently the 

 trawlers cannot fish them with the same intensity 

 that they can fiat fishes. But the evidence to 

 my mind is satisfactory that there has been a 

 distinct falling off in the abundance of flat fish, 

 more particularly plaice and soles. 



2299. Then do you include turbot and brill as 

 well ? — The statistics show that there has been 

 a falling off in the abundance of turbot and 

 brill, so far as one can rely upon statistics ; but 

 I have not studied those at all. 



2300. At any rate you think the depletion of 

 flat fish has been caused by the action of man ? 

 — Yes, I think it has. 



2301. Then so far you differ from the opinion 

 which Professor Huxley used to hold on that 

 subject ? — I have expressed my opinions. One 

 naturally respects Professor Huxley's opinions 

 and one would hesitate to go against him unless 

 one had good grounds ; but I have examined 

 the evidence again in the light of new knowledge 

 and I am compelled to differ from him in regard 

 to tho possibility of overfishing in the case of 

 these flat fish. 



2302. Does that apply to the stock of fish 

 generally, what I may call the recuperative 



i)ower of the sea, or only to the depletion in the 

 arger fish ? — I am inclined to think that the 

 development of trawling has resulted in a 

 decline of the recuperative power of the sea as 

 regards the flat fishes in the North Sea, and to 

 a less extent in regard to the round fishes. In 

 regard to some fishes, herring, mackerel, I do 

 (0.10.) 



Lord Tweedmouth — continued. 



not think man has had any influence whatever 

 on the abundance of the fish ; and therefore in 

 regard to those species 1 agree with Professor 

 Huxley. In regard to the flat fishes 1 think the 

 situation has so profoundly changed since his 

 time (the whole development of the steam 

 trawler has been since his time, since he wrote 

 and formed his opinions) that in regard to flat 

 fish I am compelled to dift'er from him in that 

 respect. 



2303. You come to that conclusion after 

 careful consideration. Now quite aside from 

 this Bill or anything else, may I ask you — 

 supposing you had imposed upon you the 

 duty of proposing a method of remedy- 

 ing that state of affairs and filling up 

 the depletion, what should you do ? — 

 I should first of all, for three or four years, make 

 a very careful and profound inquiry into the life 

 history of those fishes and into the amount of 

 fishing going on ; I would have statistics collected 

 from the different countries as to the number of 

 boats they have of different sizes and classes ;, 

 statistics as to the parts of i.hc North Sea in 

 which they are fishing at different periods of the 

 year ; and I would have statistics of all catches 

 ( f the different vessels. Then I would collate 

 and compare the results with the biological 

 examination of the life history of the fishes, and 

 of the abundance of fish on the grounds, their 

 migrations and reproduction, and so on, with the 

 intensity of fishing as revealed by the other 

 classes ot evidence; and I think if one had all those 

 details one would have no difficulty in putting- 

 one's finger upon the real cause of the apparent 

 impoverishment. But without that full know- 

 ledge we are inclined to clutch at the first straw 

 that offers itself One year a ti sherman says 

 " Let us have hatcheries all round the coast," and: 

 there is a great boom for developing hatcheries.; 

 When that has been exploded they say, " We 

 are destroying too many small fisli ; let us stop 

 destroying small fish." But there is no ex- 

 haustive inquiry preceding thes'^ suggestions, 

 and my view is that instead of this speculative, 

 empirical legislation, it would be Jar sounder to,, 

 have an exhaustive inquiry first, ,so as to know 

 if we are dealing with all the dulails, and then 

 we should be abre,'as I say, to put our finger upon, 

 the real causes of any injuries to fishes and 

 fishing grounds, and find the remedy. 



2304. Then it comes to this : that with your 

 exceptionally good opportunities of studying fish 

 and your exceptional experienci in fisheries, 

 supposing you to-morrow were appointed Minis'' 

 ter of Fisheries you would say that you have- 

 not got sufficient information to enable you to 

 -ropose a Bill which you could I v certain would 



e eflectual to meet the necessitii',s of the case ?" 

 — I feel that an effective measure must be inter- 

 national ; and therefore if I -\> ore Minister of 

 Fisheries I should be unable to pi mwse a national 

 measure which in my opinion \,-ould be per- 

 fectly satisfactory. But I think a measure could 

 be brought forward for restricting the colossal 

 destruction of these small fish by steam trawlers, 

 which would hold out a fair prospect of being 

 useful and would help those forui-uers Avho are 

 already protecting their fisheiir- in the same 



Iv way 



