U-t 



MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 



18 March 1904.J 



Sir T. Elliott, kcl. 



[Cuniinved. 



Cha i rma n — continued. 



Mines Eegulation Act, the Secretary of State also 

 has powers to make Orders or rules for securing 

 the safety of mines, use of lamps, description of 

 explosives to be used, etc. ; and there are similar 

 powers under the MetalUferous Mines Act, the 

 Quarries Act, the Explosives Act, and the Wild 

 Birds Protection Act. 



2556. Then as to the Local Government Boara, 

 what is the case ? — The Local Government Board 

 has few powers, I think, of making any direct 

 Orders ; but one conspicuous example of the 

 subordinate legislation effected by the Local 

 Government Board is the Orders they make with 

 regard to dairies, cowsheds, and milkshops under 

 the provisions of the Contagious Diseases (Animals) 

 Act. 



2557. Then what powers have the Board of 

 Trade ? — The Board of Trade have considerable 

 powers of subordinate legislation. Possibly the 

 best example of those powers is afEorded by the 

 Railway Employment (Prevention of Accidents) 

 Act, 1900, under which the Board are empowered 

 to make rules with respect to brake levers, label- 

 ling wagons, movement of wagons, lighting of 

 stations, and other matters of that kind. The 

 Board of Trade have also powers, under the 

 Merchant Shipping Act, under which they can 

 make regulations as to examinations for certifi- 

 cates of competency as to survey of ships, and as 

 to the making of load lines, and tables upon which 

 load lines are to be calculated, and other matters 

 of that kind. 



2558. And in your own department you have 

 the Diseases of Animals Act, under which you have 

 very wide powers for making Orders ? — That is 

 80, of course. 



2559. And I think you gave evidence on the 

 former occasion that you beUeve those Orders 

 were administered in accordance with the wishes 

 and with the entire concurrence of the community 

 whose interests are dealt with ? — I beheve that 

 to be so ; in fact, I may go further, and I would 

 say that any suggestion that those powers should 

 be taken away from the Board of Agriculture 

 would be received with very serious objection, and 

 criticism by the agricultural community. 



2560. And you have no reason to beUeve that 

 there will be any difficulty in carrying with you 

 the fishing interest in the making of Orders under 

 the Bill now before their Lordships ? — I believe 

 now that we have a Board of Fisheries ; the 

 Minister in charge of the Board of Fisheries, as the 

 head of the Board of Fisheries, will take very good 

 care not to go contrary to the best and general 

 trade opinion on subjects of this kind. 



2561. A good deal of evidence has been given 

 before this Committee since you were first called 

 on the general subject of what the orders of the 

 Board should be, and how much and how little 

 they would harass or regulate the trade. We 

 were told by representatives from Hull and from 

 Grimsby, that what they desired was in effect a 

 self-denying ordinance, that is to say, such an 

 order as would prevent them, by making it not 

 worth their while to go to certain eastern groimds 

 for the purpose of catching undersized fish ; and 



Chaimia n — continued. 



the particular kind of fish principally dealt with 

 was the plaice. Do you think that the first 

 Order of the Board might in the first instance be 

 limited to plaice ? — I think all the discussion 

 which has taken place on the subject distinctly 

 points to that conclusion. 



2562. And do you think it would be possible 

 to make an order which, while restricting the 

 operations of steam trawlers would not affect the 

 position of the smaller sailing trawlers up to 

 about 60 or 65 tons, which I think in the evidence 

 given yesterday was the maximrun of the trawlers 

 plying from Biixham, Yarmouth, Ramsgate, and 

 Lowestoft ? — Yes, undoubtedly, our first action 

 would be, I think, to give effect to the wishes of 

 the trade as regards the fishing on the eastern 

 grounds ; and in order to give effect to those 

 wishes I do not think it would be necessary to 

 interfere with the fishing nearer the east coast 

 carried on in vessels of the sizes to which your 

 Lordship has referred. 



2563. Still less would it interfere with the small 

 shrimpers who practically go but a few miles 

 from the coast ? — Certainly. The whole object of 

 the Bill is to enable a distinction to be drawn 

 between such fishing as shrimping, or, as I ventured 

 to say to the Committee, the catching of 

 small fish from the pier head, and the great 

 trawling industrj-, which has sucli serious effect 

 upon these eastern grounds. 



2564. Then with regard to the size of the 

 plaice, Sin. was, as you are aware, the size limit 

 proposed in 1900 ; but much evidence has been 

 given before the Committee to the effect that 

 that would not be sufficient to prevent the trawlers 

 from going to the eastern grounds. Do you think 

 that any hardship would be worked if by Order of 

 the Board the size of plaice in the first instance 

 were limited to llin. ? — ^No, if provision were 

 made for drawing a distinction between the 

 classes of vessels by which the fish are caught. 



2565. And that could perfectly well be done by 

 Order of the Board ? — That is so. I think a limit 

 of llin. without distinction as regards the classes 

 of vessels might be productive of harm ; but 

 that the Order as a whole might be so framed 

 as to do no injury to the small inshore fishing 

 interest. 



2566. Then as regards the ports, that might 

 be a matter for careful consideration after the 

 Board has ascertained what are the various sizes 

 of the vessels in the different ports ; but presumably 

 you think that there would be no hardship in 

 making the Order apply, in the first instance, 

 to all the ports all round the coast ? — My impression 

 is that no hardship would arise, and that there 

 would be considerable danger attaching to any 

 attempt to draw a distinction between one port 

 and another. I should attach much more im- 

 portance to drawing a distinction as between the 

 classes of vessels which fish from the ports. 



2567. Of course there would be a danger that 

 if you restricted it to certain ports, vessels might 

 still go to these eastern grounds and land their 

 catches Jn ports which were not subject to. the 



* order 



