372 INVESTIGATION" OF THE FUR-SEAL INDUSTRY OF ALASKA. 



One of a hundred reasons why. 



The Chairman. Dr. Townsend, do you 

 know the extent to which Liebes dealt in 

 sealskins? 



Dr. Townsend. I could not say that 

 I know the extent; I simply know they 

 were furriers interested in all kinds cf 

 furs, especially seals. 



The Chairman. Did you know at the 

 time that they were the owners of these 

 vessels in which this pirate turned up? 



Dr. Townsend. No; I never knew any- 

 thing about that until those things were 

 brought out at The Hague. 



The Chairman. It was developed at 

 The Hague that the Liebes were the 

 owners of this vessel? 



Dr. Townsend. That is my recollec- 

 tion. 



The Chairman. And I suppose that is 

 in the public records? 



Dr. Townsend. Everything, sir, that 

 is connected with the matter must be 

 between the covers of that book and be 

 between the covers of some other public 

 document in which the matter was 

 brought up a year or so later on, perhaps 

 by Mr. Elliott. But it is all published. 



Mr. Elliott. When this was brought 

 out at The Hague, what did you advise 

 Mr. Pierce to do, as his "expert pelagic 

 sealing adviser"? 



Dr. Townsend. I do not know that Mr. 

 Pierce ever asked me for advice over 

 there. He instructed me to produce 

 certain documents that would help him 

 refute claims, etc. I was a statistician. 



Mr. Elliott. Did you produce any 

 documents that refuted Liebes's claim? 



Dr. Townsend. I have no recollection 

 in regard to it. Whatever was done is in 

 the book. (Hearing No. 12, p. 774, May 

 24, 1912.) 



V. 



The suorn statements of Dr. Frederic Augustus Lucas, tcho is one of the experts cited to 

 the United States Senate Committee on Conservation of National Resources, January 

 14, 1911, and to the Bouse Committee on Expenditures in Department of Commerce and 

 Labor, June 9, 1911, by Secretary Charles Nagel, as his authority for killing seals in 

 violation of the law and regulations, to wit: 



Mr. Bowers. * * * 



Fur-Seal Board, 



Bureau of Fisheries. 

 In the Bureau of Fisheries, general matters regarding the fur seals are considered by 

 by a fur-seal board, consisting of the following; 



Townsend don't like Elliott. 



Dr. Townsend. To go back to the sub- 

 ject of the hearings : I have nothing to add 

 to what has been said by the hard-work- 

 ing and efficient officials of the Depart- 

 ment of Commerce and Labor whom 

 Elliott has placed under fire. What I 

 have written in the past year in Science 

 has already been reprinted in the hearings, 

 and my views are there available. 



I am unwilling, after 20 yeais of ac- 

 quaintance with the ways of Elliott, to 

 appear before any committee in which 

 he may be an inquisitor, or where he may 

 even be present. 



The Chairman. I want to be entirely 

 fair to the witness, and would suggest 

 that if there is any place you can dis- 

 cover in any of the hearings where Mr. 

 Elliott falsified or has overstepped the 

 truth, so far as the chair is concerned 

 you are entirely at liberty to submit the 

 statement. 



Mr. Elliott. He should be compelled 

 to. 



The Chairman. One moment. I sim- 

 ply make that statement on account of 

 the allegations in the statement which 

 the witness "has just read. 



Dr. Townsend. It would take a good 

 deal of your time, Mr. Chairman, to go 

 through and point these out. 



Mr. Elliott. You will have to before 

 you leave the city; I will tell you that. 

 You will answer a good many other ques- 

 tions to-day. (Hearing No. 12, pp. 739, 

 740, May 24, 1912.) 



Dr. Frederic A. Lucas, Director of the American Museum of Natural History, 

 member of the Fur Seal Commissions of 1896 and 1897. and one of the keenest, most 

 discerning, and best-known naturalists. * * * ^Hearing No. 2, p. 109, June 9, 

 1911.) 



