INVESTIGATION OF THE F UK-SEAL INDUSTRY OF ALASKA. 387 



course of your remarks had been trampled 

 to death? 



Dr. Lucas. I did not. 



Mr. Elliott. After you had read your 

 paper on this subject of trampled pups, 

 didn't Dr. Merriam rise and say he 

 agreed -with you? 



Dr. Lucas. I do not recall. I do not 

 have the minutes of that meeting. 



Mr. Elliott. Then didn't Mr. C. H. 

 Townsend rise and sav that some of the 

 things he had missed, but he agreed with 

 you? 



Dr. Lucas. I recall the meeting. 



Mr. Elliott. It is coming back to you 

 now. Didn't Mr. True — this was Janu- 

 ary 4, 1897, at Cosmos Hall — didn't Mr. 

 True arise and say that he had failed to 

 notice these trampled pups? 



Dr. Lucas. I do not know. 



Mr. Elliott. Didn't Dr. Stejneger also 

 rise and say that he was considerably 

 embarrassed but that he had no reason 

 to doubt your discovery of trampled pups? 



Dr. Lucas. Dr. Stejneger remarked 

 that he doubted it. 



Mr. Elliott. Now, it is coming back to 

 you that you did address them on the 

 subject of trampled pups? 



Dr. Lucas. No; causes of mortality 

 among seal pups. 



Mr. Elliott. Is that in answer to my 

 question? 



Dr. Lucas. It is. (Hearing No. 12, 

 p. 719, May 16, 1912.) 



Lucas, ''scientist/' would not 

 stop killing, "for the good of the 

 herd." 



Mr. McGuire. Assuming that pelagic 

 sealing has been stopped, would you sus- 

 pend killing on the islands? 



Dr. Lucas. Xo. sir. 



Mr. McGuire. What would you do? 



Dr. Lucas. I should recommend, as I 

 think I have done elsewhere, that the 

 first year a less number of seals be taken 

 than has been taken, in order to provide 

 sufficient males for the females spared by 

 pekgic sealing. If we killed 12.000 seals 

 last year, I would say, do not kill but 

 10.000 this year, to make sure of having a 

 sufficient amount. I believe in taking 

 no chances and leaving no loophole for 

 criticism. That would be of course a pre- 

 cautionary measure. 



The cessation of killing on land would 

 release an undue number of males that 

 would do no good, that would simply dis- 

 turb the rookeries and be a dead loss com- 

 mercially. (Hearing No. 12. pp. 712, 713, 

 May 16, 1912.) 



Dr. Lucas. I didn't know that he 

 quoted me. I haven't that document by 

 me. Have you the document? 



Mr. Elliott. I don't need it. You 

 don't deny its existence, do you? 



Dr. Lucas. I know there is such a 

 report. 



Mr. Elliott. You know there is a re- 

 port of some 46 pages with your name 

 associated with Dr. Jordan as one of the 

 distinguished scientists who had made 

 this close study of the seals that summer. 

 Now, in 1897, you discovered those pups 

 were not trampled to death, didn't you? 



Dr. Lucas. The greater part of them. 

 Yes; we revised our causes of the previous 

 year. 



Mr. Elliott. Who revised them? 



Dr. Lucas. I did most of it, because I 

 was the one on whom devolved this 

 report on the causes of mortality. (Hear- 

 ing No. 12, p. 720, May 16, 1912.) 



Liebes, lessee, would not stop 

 killing, "for the good of the 

 herd." 



The Chairman. Have you any idea or 

 general knowledge of about how many 

 seals there are in the herd now? 



Mr. Liebes. No, sir; I have no knowl- 

 edge. 



The Chairman. The business is almost 

 destroyed, is it not, Mr. Liebes? 



Mr. Liebes. Well, not necessarily so. 

 If they are allowed to recuperate, they 

 will be all right. They will be able to 

 take seals each year, and I certainly think 

 that is the only way to do. This idea of 

 shutting down for a number of years is un- 

 necessary and absolute rot. You have 

 got to run your seal herd like you would 

 run a stock range; it has got to be left to 

 people who understand the business, and 

 in the discretion of the officers in charge, 

 men of ability, if you have confidence in 

 them, and from what I have seen of the 

 Department of Fisheries they certainly 

 have the ability, and the people around 

 the islands certainly understand their 

 business. They are good, conscientious 

 people. If such people run the thing 

 and take the surplus males each year, it 

 will be all right. It is absolutely essen- 

 tial that it should be run like a stock farm 

 is run. 



