14 6 



FOREST AND STREAM. 



(March 20, iS84. 



all, nor to enter into any controversy with him, I merely 

 write this to put myself right before your readers. _ I pro- 

 pose, in a few days, to do some experimenting with different 

 charges and manner of loading shells, and if of sufficient 

 interest, will send you an account of the same. Octo. 



Johnstown, Pa., March 7, 1884. 



Editor fhre.st and Stream: 



I have owned nine different breechloading shotguns in the 

 past ten years, made by various firms, and ranging from 7 

 pounds to 11 pounds in weight, and from 14 to 10-gauge, 

 with length of barrels from 28 inches to 82 inches. My 

 present guns are,8 pounds hamrnerless, and 10 pounds cheaper 

 grade of Euglish gun. I think I am pretty well "fixed" now 

 for guns. Both niy guns are 10-bore, and I prefer to have 

 them alike on account of ammunition. I have spent a great 

 deal of time and some money in testing these different guns 

 with varying loads. By nailing on the side of a shed a pack- 

 age of large wrapping paper, and at forty yards, firing at the 

 paper, in this way I get distribution and penetration. 



It may surprise some of your readers when I tell them 

 that a 14-bore, 30 inch length of barrel, Greener gun, has the 

 best record for penetration of any gun I ever used, and I 

 will surprise them further by saying that there is a muzzle- 

 loading ami owned here which "could be bought for twenty 

 dollars, I think, that, after what I saw it do in the way of game 

 killing at long distance, I would no more think of shooting 

 either" of my guns against it than I would of loading one of 

 them with ball and shooting it against a rifle. In my opinion, 

 the gun makers will have to manufacture their breechloaders 

 with a different kind of point at the breech from what is now 

 used before they can make guns of equal weight to carry 

 shot with those"loaded at the muzzle. Straight Hand. 



Editor Forest and Stream: 



I have been much interested in the "Performance of Shot- 

 guns." 1 once tried the very experiment suggested by "Cal- 

 ifornia." I had just received a B. L., 12-gauge, 



8i pounds' weight, of which I had dreamed and thought 

 for some three months. In my haste to test the gun I 

 forgot to take the powder charges from the store, and so 

 loaded (with the advice of a friend [?]) by guess. _ I wondered 

 the shells were made so short, as I had difficulty in squeezing 

 the last wad in. However, I started out and fired at a mark. 

 A government mule couldn't have kicked harder than that 

 gun. 1 fired again at a strawberry box at seventy paces. 

 This time "the retreat partook of the nature of a panic," but 

 1 hit the box. A friend happening along with a flask having 

 a charger on top, I unloaded and measured my charges. I 

 had loaded with 6 drams of pcwder and 1| ounces of shot, 

 His measure was, perhaps, not accurate, but was probably 

 as much so as the general run of measures. I have since ex- 

 perimented a little, but never could obtain the wonderful 

 targets I have seen made— on paper. I now use 3 drams 

 of edfi ami i ounce of snot, and me gun performs 



perfectly satisfactorily. I believe with careful loading I can, 

 by shooting; 3 drams of powder and 1£ ounces of shot, place 

 240 pellets in a 30-inch circle at 40 yards. And, by the way, 

 I w-ould like to ask if "L. H. H." is always as original as in 

 his last communication. It seems to me 1 have read the same 

 opinion, expressed in the identical words, in "Hallock's 

 Gazetteer." It may be only a remarkable coincidence, 

 thoutrh. Siat-ia. 



Bradford, Pa., March 7. 



Editor Forest and Stream: 



I would be pleased if there were some one among your 

 readers who will answer the following: I have a breechload- 

 ing gun .12-80-71 that will put 175 No. 8 shot in a 24- rich 

 circle at 45 yards, using IJ-ounces Le Roy shot. Iktl 

 wish to know is this: Is that a good shooting gun, and how 

 does it compare with a "full choke?" I have no trouble" in 

 killing game with it, and have cut down a ruffed grou- 

 yards, and a rabbit at 61 yards, yet persons have seen it 

 Shoot and do not call it a good one, still they won't shoot 

 their muzzle-loaders against it. Also, 1 have seen on paper 

 targets away ahead of mine so that I had begun to think my 

 gun was only ordinary. 



We have plenty of ruffed grouse, and rabbits or hares, and 

 our fall shooting\vas very good. One party of fox hunters, 

 Hearty Farrar and Will Dyer, have killed sixty-five foxes in 

 front bf their hounds, and did it with .12-30-8 breechloading 

 guns, and they rarelv had a fox get away. In this section 

 the old muzzleloader is gradually giving place to the new 

 breechloader, and the best makes have shown their ability 

 to bold the place they have taken. 



"D. H. S.," in your last issue, may rest assured his gun 

 can't be excelled, because, when a gun puts 53 more shot in 

 the target than there is in the gun, I do not think it can be 

 improved, and at 40 yards the gun puts 148 more shot in the 

 target than there is in the gun. I used Tatham & Brother's 

 table to find number of shot in an ounce, and of No. 3 shot 



il is 106 - , .„ , i • 



Perhaps "D. H. S." was mistaken, if so, will he explain. 



Snip Snap. 



placed. I have a light gun that I can feel pretty certain of 

 doing a quail justice with at from 30 to 40 yards, if I hold 

 on the bird, but should not expect to kill many at 60 or 

 70 yards. It will shoot heavy shot hard enough"at 80 yards 

 to go through a duck, but the next. thing is to hit said duck; 

 possibly by shooting at a large flock, some might be killed, 

 but I consider such ranges beyond the scope of a shotgun, 

 and would not advise any one to strain himself or his gun 

 in attempting impossible feats. Chippewa. 



Seville, O., March 10 ; 



Editor Forest and Stream: 



Referring to "California" in issue of 6th inst., under the 

 head of "The Performance of Shotguns," if you want to 

 ascertain the true inwardness of your barrels when clean, 

 'ook through them, and if you -find the circles true, and that 

 they fit each other like the joints of a telescope, i. e., the 

 lines equal distances from each other all round, your gun is 

 "as straight as a gun barrel" if otherwise you know some- 

 thing is w^rong. This wrinkle, perhaps, the makers may not 

 thank me for. Take any of the cheap shop guns, and de- 

 pend on it you won't find the circles as above in one among 

 a thousand. Try it for yourself. R. P. I. 



Picton, Canada, March 9. 



Editor Forest and Stream: 



I think the idea iu regard to properly loading shells, 

 suggested by you, a good one, and if any one has a better 

 way than mine I shall be very glad to know what it is 

 1 am ready to try any plan that promises to be any improve- 

 ment. I use an 8f-pound gun 12-gauge, 30-inch barrels, 

 modified choke, chambered to take 2i-inch shells. I use two 

 felt wads on powder, and one (felt) on shot. 



A. E. B. 



Dodge Center, Minn. 



Editor Forest and Stream: 



Will you ask ' 'D. H. S." what make of No. 3 shot contains 

 185 pellets to the lj ounce? Saying nothing of the "280" 

 as mentioned by him in issue of March 6. 



Also please tell "Ogeechee," Feb. 21, if he has a gun that 

 with 1 dram powder and 13 buckshot kills bucks 120 yards, 

 and wishes to know about having something done to the 

 barrels, I should say— don't. Review. 



THE CHOICE OF HUNTING RIFLES. 



Editor Forest and. Stream: 



I have agreed with some of the letters on "The Choice of 

 Hunting Rifles" which have appeared in Forest And 

 Stream Bttfl with some I have not, but I like to know every 

 oik's opinion iu regard to the matter, and therefore wiil 

 give mine. It seems to me that with as many different rifles 

 as are now being manufactured in the world, all ought to be 

 suited. Just step into a gun store and there you can find 

 everything in the shape of firearms. What will suit one 

 will not another, and you may take the best rifle ever made 

 and somebody will find fault with it; but let us be content 

 with what we can find in the rifles already made. 



But now comes the tug. Some like repeaters best and 

 some prefer the singleloader. 1 have used for the past 

 twelve years a single breechloading rifle for all kinds of 

 game, from a deer down to a little red squirrel, the size beiug 

 .44-caliber, 48 grains powder, 240 grains lead and 30-inch 

 barrel, central fire. 1 can take the head off of a ruffed 

 grouse every time, stod for all kinds of game shooting such 

 as we have down in old Maine I would not exchange for any 

 repeater that 1 have yet seen. The .44-40 and .45-60 re- 

 peater seems to be the leading rifle among sportsmen just 

 now, but there are points about it that I do not like, not say- 

 ing a word against its accuracy, for no doubt all repeaters 

 will shoot as fine as any kind of breechloader. 



In the first place, I want a gun that after using I can pass 

 a cleaning rod (I prefer one made of wood to all patent ones) 

 through from the breech, and then have a good chance to 

 look through the barrel and see when it is clean ; and I don't 

 like so much machinery to keep watch of. It gets out of 

 order and does not always work just right. This I have 

 seen take place with the Winchester in trying to show how 

 quick an empty shell could be thrown out and a full cart- 

 ridge placed in the chamber ready to fire. In regard to 

 rapidity of fire, I think that any of the single breechloading 

 rifles now in use are safer, and wiil do their work plenty 

 quick enough to answer all general purposes. For a hunter 

 that is easily excited I suppose the magazine rifle would be 

 better, for when they see a deer they will not stop to-take a 

 decent aim, but bang away three or four shots at him, and 

 then when found, they will find only one bullet hole in the 

 carcass. Every one for his fancy, but I do not think we 

 Down-Easters will need a .40-90 repeater, as we are not 

 troubled with the grizzly or any of the other large ferocious 

 beasts of the West. Single Loader. 



Machias, Me., March 10. 



What is applicable for hunting rifles I presume will in a 

 measure answer for target rifles. I cannot understand in 

 all this correspondence why such a heavy charge of powder 

 is required to do effective shooting at short range. I belong- 

 to a club of amateur marksmen who meet occasionally for 

 recreation, and while none of our uumber have had much 

 experience on the range with a rifle, and are as yet poor rifle 

 shots, we still sometimes manage to do very fair shooting 

 with charges much less than stated by nearly all your 

 writers. 



I use a 32-caliber rim-fire Remington rifle, and find since T 

 have been using this make my scores have shown a very de- 

 cided improvement, even wuth a small charge of powder. 

 Our range is 200 yards, and we use the Union cartridge, .33 

 long. 



Some time ago 1 was at the range, and running out of the 

 .32 long, I used the .32 short at the same elevation, and 

 made four, with an occasional five, every shot, there being 

 no apparent difference in the score. I have seen thousands 

 of the Union cartridges used (we have discarded all others), 

 and have never had but one that did not explode at the first 

 trial. 



To test the rifle and the cartridge, I measured off 166 

 feet, and using the Union .82 short, rim fire, open sight, 

 Remington rifle, eff-hand, I placed ten consecutive shots 

 (without any sighting or preliminary shots) within a circle 

 less than four inches in diameter. 



This" might not be any "great shakes" for an experienced 

 rifleman, but for an amateur like myself, I felt highly en- 

 couraged at making a score of 45 out of a possible 50 with- 

 out the use of any improved sights, and with a charge of 

 powder so much less than is generally used. Pasbtonk. 



Philadelphia, March 11. 



Editor Forest and Stream: 



Have carefully read communications as to "best hunting 

 rifles," "shotguns," "express rifles," etc., and of this last 

 allow me to say there is not a genuine express rifle made in 

 this country (my opinion). Johw Boyden. 



Chatham, Mass., March 9. 



A PLEA FOR OLD-TIME CRUDITIES. 



Editor Forest and Stream: 



The average reader of the hunting rifle discussion is in a 

 maze of perplexity, for what are. these desolating arms 

 wanted? Not far purposes of war, for the country is at 

 peace, and if she were not, with dynamite bombs exploding 

 at the distance of five miles, and the hidden torpedo con- 

 nected with electric wires, small arms, shooting bullets, need 

 no improvements— leaving out the humanity of the filing, 

 for in these civilized days a foe placed hors de combat is as 

 good as a dead man. 



Surely increased destructivenessis not wanted to kill game. 



r the only formidable animal iu America is thegrizzly bear; 



Editor Forest and Stream: n 



In your issue of March 6, your correspondent "D. H. b. 

 inquires if his target as published can be excelled. Well I 

 should Bay not; when a gun loaded H ounces of shot that 

 weighs 106 pellets to the ounce (No. 3) puts into a target 280, 

 why 1 don't know of any way of bettering it, as according 

 to my figuring there would be but 183 pellets in the charge. 

 If "D H S." has that kind of gun, 1 know a man that 

 wants to buy it. A friend of mine in the hardware business 

 here who is an enthusiastic sportsman and has handled guns 

 in his business for years, says tell that gentleman that he has 

 a fine Colt gun, a red Irish setter and a small farm to trade 

 for such a gun. If "D. H. S." had said No. 8 instead of 

 No. 3 his target would have seemed a little nearer my idea 

 of a first-class performance of a first-class gun. 



Now a word of information for "Backwoods. In my 

 opinion a 12-gauge, 30 inch, of from 7 Ho 9 pounds weight, is 

 as "ood a style of gun as can be used for all general pur- 

 poses and a gun that will cut down a quail at forty yards 

 every time if properly held will be found to be about as 

 good a shooter as is necessary, or as is likely to be found. 

 All this talk about shooting game at extraordinary distances 

 is all fudge. Of course any gun of good shooting qualities 

 will kill occasionally at long ranges, but to demand that a 

 gun shall perform miracles, is unjust to the maker, and 

 will probably result iu disappointment to the shooter. It 

 "Backwoods" wants a gun for general use on all kinds of 

 game Ithinkonesuch as I have described will suit him, and for 

 my own part I should prefer one of American manufacture, 

 as in case of accident broken parts can be more readily re- 



J. L. 

 some 



Editor Forest and Stream: 



In your issue of the 6th inst., I find a letter from "J. 

 Dell.," who is traversing ground I attempted to explore soi 

 fifteen years ago, and on having a preliminary examination 

 made at the Patent Office, I found that earlier inventions 

 had been there and one Gen. Cochrane of New York had 

 patented the same thing, only he had arranged it for rifle 

 balls, where it was not so much needed, and my experiments 

 were' with the shotgun alone. 



In the experiments I made with various proportion of inner 

 tube, I found a tube of 20 per cent, area of shell to give the 

 best results, and the results were remarkable. Using in a 

 12-gauge gun, 5 drams powder and 1} ounces of shot, I 

 found the recoil lessened greatly, the report changed to 

 nearly that of a rifle, the pattern doubled, and the penetra- 

 tion increased 50 per cent. This was the mean of five; 

 charges from shells with inner tubes and five charges from 

 plain shells, fired from the same barrel 



On finding my way stopped by a patent I tried to reach 

 the same results in another way, but could not equal the 

 results given by the shells with the tube in them. 



In the latter plan, I used No. 7 Laflin & RandOL in the 

 first half of the charge, and No. 3 Laflin & Rand OL for 

 the last part, using stiff cardboard and one thick felt wad 

 over powder, and as thin cardboard over the shot as I could 

 work there. 1 have used this method for years for duck 

 shooting and am satisfied that the increased velocity and 

 pattern of shot pays for the trouble in using two grades of 

 powder. ^- 



Canton, Ohio. 



Editor Forest and Streeim: . 



I have been much instructed in the correspondence in the 

 Forest and Stream relating to the choice of hunting rifles. 



for ._. 



und from the interesting and instructive letters in the Forest 

 and Stream from sportsmen who have traversed thefroutieis 

 of the far West, and the gorges and defiles of the Rockies in 

 search of big game, we draw the conclusion the grizzly 

 scarce, and hiding in the thickest chapparals: so that it is a 

 task of infinite trouble and patience to ever come a- 

 them. One of your correspondents wrote that for years he 

 has hunted for the Orms TwrriMles, and ridden thousands of 

 miles in the wild West, and has never caught a glimpse of 

 one yet. 



I hazard the assertion that any sportsman who wants a 

 more deadly weapon than the modern breechloading rifle to 

 meet the grizzly bear or any other animal in a fair right, is a 

 timid sportsman, to say the least of it. I have had no ex- 

 perience with dangerous game, my sole shooting being wild 

 cattle, with a Winchester of 1876 model, but what 1 saw ol 

 the terrible results of the bullets showed me as plain as day, 

 that a ball with a velocity of 1,500 feet a second striking any 

 animal, crushes its way with such instantaneous force that 

 it paralyzes the brute for a second or two, which gives 

 ample time for the shooter to pump in another shell and fire. 

 He who could not save himself from any beast with his 

 fifteen shots, well deserves to die the death. 



iool. brave man, with a modern repealing magazine 

 rifle could lace wi.th safety any animal that ever walked the 

 earth. The royal Bengal tiger, the African lion, the horned 

 rhinoceros, the Indian elephant, nay the great mastodon 

 itself would stand no earthly chance against a rain of balls 

 that crushed through bone, muscle and flesh at every two 

 or three seconds. 



Look at that king of sportsmen, Gordon Cummins, who 

 confronted in their' jungles the lordly lion, and the I 

 elephants, with nothing iu his hands but a double barreled 

 rifle; and' yet while he counted his trophies by the score, 

 here' are so-called sportsmen of the day, who. with firearms 

 so improved, that science and art have reached their limit, 

 are crying out for a more deadly weapon, something that 

 will conduce to more destructive results. 



The truth of the case is, that the very perfection of fire- 

 arms has been a curse to this country. The more desi ruel i ve 

 the sporting weapon becomes, the scarcer the game. Had 

 human ingenuity stopped at the muzzleloadiug shotgun and 

 rifle, the plains of the West would be filled with bullaloaud 

 deer to-day, and the Atlantic coast alive with wildfowl. 



The selfish race of to-day seem to desire to leave nothing 

 for their posterity in the sporting line except the mounted 

 antlers of the stag they killed, or the buffalo or deer robe 

 that they were once so proud of. Fifty years from new- 

 nay in twenty -five— there will be no shooting in this country 

 except iu favored localities held by private clubs. And the 

 breechloader is the cause. 



There are some sybaritic sportsmen— God save the 

 mark— who love to witness the dying agonies of the game 

 without the trouble or danger of hunting it. These men 

 would shoot all day in a herd of buffalo, and joy in seeing 

 the staggering form sink to earth. The more the merrier. 

 Like tluT brutal populace of Spain, their pleasure is not in 

 the final triumph of skill, patience and marksmanship, 

 against brute cunning, instinct and wildness; but rather the 

 delight, of seeing the" pouring red blood gush out fresh from 

 the heart, crimsoning all around. 



These are the class who would have a grand battue it pos- 

 sible, and kill, kill, kill, until not a beast of the field or bird 

 of the air was left alive. 



1 expect to live to see the period when some of these sports- 

 men will have a battery of doublebarreled guns covering 

 the decoys, and they a mile off in a warmly heated room 

 with an electric wire ia their hands connected with the trig- 

 gers and a spy glass to their eyes, will touch off the battery, 

 and annihilate a flock at each discharge 



With breechloading shotguns, from No. 16 to ISo. 4, that 

 can be loaded and shot five hundred times an hour; wuth re- 

 peating rifles carrying explosive bullets that can be fired hlty- 



