FOREST AND STREAM. 



[July 9, 1891. 



BUILDING UNDER SURVEY. 



T) ACING- conBtnictiou is a new tMug on this side of the Atlan- 

 tic, dating back no further than Liris a,nd Kathleen, built in 

 1889, but enough has been seen already to show the desirability of 

 a body which shall do the same work as the British Lloyds, and 

 much more too; in laying down rules for the construction of 

 yachts, and the surveying and rating of all pleasure vessels. The 

 building to Lloyds rules is In no way compulsory in Great Britain, 

 nor is it generally done in the case of racing yachts, but even 

 there the desirability of complying with the rules is very evident. 

 Even with a long experience to gu'de them and their strong con- 

 servatism to hold them back, British designers are pushing 

 toward a dangerous extreme in light construction. On this side, 

 with far less practical experience, the characteristic enterprise 

 and recklessness of Americans are likely to carry them much 

 further, and already there are indications that strength baa been 

 seriously neglected in the striving for a few extra pounds of lead 

 in the keel. The practical question of the organization of such a 

 body, with suitable rules for building, and of making it compul- 

 sory, or at least highly desirable that every racing yacht sballbe 

 built under its survey, is a mostdifQcul : one. The necessity, how- 

 ever, is likely to be apparent to all in two or three years more, by 

 which time a great deal of money, and probably some lives, will 

 have been wasted in a fleet of dangerous and useless racing boats. 

 In the interests not of safety alone, but of yacht building and 

 yacht racing, Ic is most imperative that a timely and adequate 

 check should be placed on the extreme of light construction 

 which is now threatened by such competition as that in the 49ft 

 class. ^ 



MYSTERIOUS NEW TAOHTS.-The N«w York Sun has lately 

 culled attention to two yachts now building in Great Britain, of 

 which very little has been published, and both of which are sus- 

 pected of being intended for America. The larger of the two, ac- 

 cording to the Field, is a 60-rater, about Yarana's size, or about 

 65ft. 1 w.l. She was designed by Mr. Arthur E. Payne and is build- 

 ing by Camper & Nicholson, though neither the new Lloyds nor 

 the Field give any hint as to her owner or her class, racer or 

 cruiser. Oue fact about her that Is sufllclently remarkable to at- 

 tract comment is that Mr, Payne's work thus far has been con- 

 lined to racers of 20-rating and under, his great success in the 

 smaller classes having thus far brought him no orders for racers 

 of large size. It may be that the present craft Is only a cruiser, 

 wbich would account for her receiving no special notice before 

 she is well completed. In any case it is highly improbable that 

 she is destined as a challenger for the America's Oun. The other 

 yacht is a 20-rater designed and building by Mr. Will Fife, Jr., at 

 Fairlie, her owner being a Mr. Paterson, a new and unfamiliar 

 name in yachting on both sides of the Atlantic. The supposition 

 is that she may prove the half-expected dark horse for Admiral 

 Tweed, but this is little likely if the dimensions thus far given 

 are at all correct, a 5 they are identical with those of the new 

 Dragon. 48ft. l.w.l. and 10ft. Ilia. beam. The bjat is a 30-rater, of 

 composite coaatruct on, ^nd hardly such a craft as might be ex- 

 pected from Mr. Fife for American courses. What is still more 

 conclusive is that even though she should sail at oace from the 

 other side, sbs could not be ready for a race off Marhlehead in 

 much less than two months, by which time the racing will be 

 uea^•l^■ over. I c is not for a moment likely that Mr. Tweed will 

 again try the Minerva oxperimpnt, of bringing a boat here one 

 season to race the nest, and we can only conclude that whatever 

 surprise ho may have in store, his plans have not yet been die- 

 covered. 



REGATTAS AND RACES,— That good old term regatta, which 

 has been ratber set aside by some clubs of late years in favor of 

 the more ambitions titles of race or match, is having its meaning 

 very clearly and practically defined by the natural course of 

 events. In every one of the large clubs, save the New York, it 

 has been found necessary to continue the regatta as a popular 

 fixture, but at the same time to supplement it with a special race 

 of a very different sort. The Atlantic Y. C. held its usinl regatta 

 on June 16. open to yachts of all rigs and clas-ies, with, the usua^ 

 club steamer, tea cream and band. A week later, however, it 

 hunted up a better coiirse down the Bay and gave a very fine race 

 tor the three classes of yachts that alone show any signs of rac- 

 ing life this year. The SeawanhaKa followed the same course, 

 the regatta on the Bay being supplemented by a race on the 

 Sound a couple ot weeks later for the 46ft. and 25ft classes. The 

 Larchmont held its special race just before the regatta, while the 

 Eastern arranged a special handicap for tlie racing classes to pre- 

 cede its regatta, which, however, was postponed to a later date. 

 Unfortunately most regattas prove anything but races, and at 

 the same time a race need be in no way a regatta, but both are 

 called for under existing conditions, and the sooner the distinct 

 functions of each are recoenized the better it will be for specta- 

 tors, committees and racing men. 



PRIZES FOR SAILING OVER.— The custom of giving prizes 

 for sailing over the cours« when but one boat in a class comes to 

 the liie has never been popular in America perhaps for good and 

 sufficient reasons in the past. In the present condition of yacht 

 racing, however, it is but proper that a yacht which comes to the 

 line for a race should receive some recognition for what she has 

 done and not be kept out of a prize perhaps by the withdrawal at 

 the last moment of some other yacht. The main consideration 

 just now, and probably for some time to come, is to get starters; 

 and from this point of view it is good policy to offer every induce- 

 ment to owners to start their vessels. It is undeniable that a 

 certain feeling exists against men, who, owning fast boats, bring 

 them to the line for every race, whether their clasi is well filled 

 or not, but it is just these men who are doing the most for racing 

 to-day. For the time being at least we would advocate a liberal 

 prize to every yacht which sails over without a competitor; at 

 least half, if not the whole, regular prize. We believe that 

 such a course will in a short time promote entries, and at 

 least it will break up the practice sometimes indulged in of a 

 yacht declining to start because she knows that by so doing she 

 prevents a competitor from racing. 



"KILL THE UMPIRE."— There was some grumbling about 

 Larchniont after the first hatdicap race that sounded very much 

 like this familiar cry of the ball field, and if handicap races be- 

 come general the sime cry will be heard again. From all appear- 

 ances in the present case the committee, who for obvious reasons 

 prefer to remain incog, like the estimable pair in "Erminie," have 

 tried to do their work fairly, and though they made some mit>- 

 takes there was really f mall ground for complaint as the race 

 turned out. The task was a thankless one, that few would care 

 to undertake as an afternoon's amusemeut, And the endiiu view 

 was certainly praisevrorthy. 



THE COURSE OF YACHT RACING.-A rather sad indication 

 of the coui-se of modern yachting is found in tho amount of space 

 given up perforce in the Field to the doings of a fleet of Brats, 

 Babes, Pups and Bairns, which mongrel lot is monopolizing so 

 much of the attention of racing men , already too few in number. 

 Such a scaling down in size is but natural and inevitable, and the 

 racing of smaD craft is a most desirable form of sport in many 

 ways, but at the same time one cannot forget the grand fleets of 

 old, such craft as Formosa, Kriemhilda, lona, Bloodhound, Ce- 

 tonia, Egeria, Miranda, Samoena, Vandnara, Corisande, Frpda, 

 Annasona, Neptune, Vanessa, Sayonara, May, .Tullanar and Flor- 

 inda. The development of boat sailing is a most excellent thing, 

 but the rapid decline of yacht racing is a very different matter, 

 and yet it is evident that the 8ara«» change ia taking place in 

 America as in Great Britain, It is a bid thing for yachting 

 when an old racing man forsakes the deck of a Yarana for the 

 stern sheets of a Brat. 



ALBORAK.— The event of the week is the defeat of the new 

 Paine boat, Alborak, the craft that was looked to for a proof of 

 Gen, Paine's well known views as to pow^r. In justice to the boat 

 and all concerned in her. Gen, Paine, Mr, John B, Paine and 

 Capt. Haff, it must be admitted too little has yet been seen to 

 condemn her as a failure; and she is thus far, like a number of 

 the others, in very poor shape for racing. At the same time she 

 has made the poorest showing in her first race of all the new 

 boats, and there seems little probability of her ever proving the 

 chosen one to stop Gloriana. The present week has been an off 

 one for the laws of nature, Alborak so badly beaten by Oweene, 

 Mineola losing her mast for the second time in two weeks, and 

 .Jessica scoring a fair win on elapsed time from Sayonara and 

 Mineola, 



VREDA AND WHITE WINGS.-The race for the Queen's cup, 

 described in another ooliumu brought together an interesting pair 

 of yachts, the American centerboard sloop White Wings, designed 

 by the laf) Capt, Cuthbsrt, and the steel 20-rating cutter Vreda, 

 designed hy Mr. Watson and sailod across last year to Lake 

 Ontario. The performance of the two was go even that a com- 

 parision of their dimension'^ must be interesting. Vreda is about 

 46ft. l.w.l.. lOft. Sin. beam, and 9ft. 6in. draft, while White Wings 

 is now about 42ft. Bin. l.w.l,, 14ft. 9in. beam and 4ft, draft. Vreda's 

 displacement is about 38 tons and White Wings' 16.5 tons. The sail 

 area of the two is nearly the same, about 3,500iq. ft. by the Sea- 

 wanhaka rule. 



TIME'S CHANGES,— lb is a curious chance that has placed 

 Captain John Barr in temporary command of Cinderella, the 

 yacht that he defeated so often whUe skipper of Clara in 1886, A 

 race between the two now would be very interesting with Capt, 

 Barr at the wheel of the centerboarder. provided she were in 

 good racing form; and might possibly justify the remark of Mr 

 Watson on inspecting the two models in the Seawanhaka C. Y. C 

 rooms. He said: "I think that the greatest difference in the two 

 is about here," placing his flngsr on Clara's deck by the rudder 

 post. 



LONG ISLAND SOUND RACES. 



THE great change in New Yo-k yachting, the removal of the 

 local yachting center from New York B^y to the west end of 

 Lone Island Sound, has been made so gradually that it is hard to 

 say just when tne turn of the tide occurred, but the strong set to 

 the eastward is now too plain to be mistaken. Some of the most 

 potent of the causes of this change are becoming more powerful 

 each year, the increasing number of vessels in the harbo'; the 

 greater speed at «hich many, such as the new Sandy Hook boats, 

 are run: the increased value of the water front, due to the 

 demands of the great, railroads; and the steady encroachments on 

 the limited waters "^f the Upper Bay, of these same railroads by 

 means of wharves and piers. Staten Island, on^e the chopen land 

 of yachtsmen, boating men and canoeists, has been so thoroughly 

 encircled hy the great railroads that it is no longer ftvailable for 

 any form of water sport, and in another five years it will be far 

 worse than to-day, while the Jprsev an^ Bay Bidge shores are 

 rapidly shari -^g the same fate, the thud of the pilo driver and the 

 creaking chains of the steam dredge being heard day and night. 



Gradual as this change of base has been, it is marked by some 

 prominent rnilestones, the organization of the Larctimont Y'. C, 

 in 1880, hems the first and most important. Following this, in the 

 years from 1885 to 1890 a number oi new clubs havf( sorung up and 

 flourished, the influence of each being purely local, but all lielpiug 

 toward the ultimate development of yachting in the Sound. 

 In 1889 the principal regular eve^it of the year in the Sound, the 

 annual regatta of the Larchmont Y. C. wis supplemented by the 

 races of two more clubs. ' he Amencpn Y. C. of M'lton Point, near 

 Larchmont. which for the first time held a s«iling regatta, and 

 that of the Seawanhajca C. Y. C, at Oj-ster Baj , this being the 

 first rtcognition on the nart of this club of the growing import 

 ance of the Sound as a racing ground. The races of these turee 

 clubs made a most interesting and instructive series, the great 

 f^amre being the new 40ft. class, with Gorilla, Liris, Mar quita, 

 Pappoose and Nymph. Though of such recent origin, the July 

 race week on the i^ound oilers a very lavorable comparison to the 

 long-established June week of the Bay, and while the importance 

 of Che latter has unquestionably diminished, there is every reason 

 to look for a rapid and prosperous increase of racing among the 

 Sound clubs. 



The present year promises to be a marked one in the history of 

 yachting on Long Island Sound, through the return to its birth- 

 place of one of the strongest of the New Y'ork clubs, the Sea- 

 wanhaka Corinthian, oiganized originally as the Seawanhaka 

 Y'acht Club of Oys'er Bay. Throughout its twenty years of life 

 the Seawanhaka Club has been distinctively a racing organiza- 

 tion, its whole policy being directed to the encouragement of 

 yacht sailing. Of late years, with the serious drawback f f no 

 station at all or a t best, of one on New York Bay, it has been at a 

 disadvantage in the matter of r cing; but ODce in its new home, 

 in one of the finest harbors on the Sound, and with a racine 

 course at its doors, it will be in a position to make its races as 

 important as in the old times at Oyster Bay, or a few years later 

 at Staten Inland. 



The calls of business are too imperative to the average Ameri- 

 can, however k< en a yachtsman tie may he, to permit him to lake 

 a whole week for racing so s' on after the .Jnne regattas and so 

 close to the cluo cruises in the latter part of .Tulj ; and this is cer- 

 tain to a'"t to the detriment of the later races of the series, as 

 those of Monday and Tuesday. In spite of this, however, we look 

 to see in a very few years a laree number of races, with classes 

 well filled in each, under th"* management of the Larchmont, the 

 Seawanhaka, the American, the New Rochelle, the Riverside 

 and other neighboring clubs, that will bring together the entire 

 local racing fleet between the Narrows on the south and New 

 Haven on the east. 



LARCHMONT SPECIAL, 46FT. CLASS, JUNE 30. 



In addition to a double race in the regular regatta the Larch- 

 mont Y'. C. gave a special race for the 46f c. class, with prizes of 

 $250 and f 100. the latter for four starters, the course being 12 

 miles to windwar-', which race was sailed on Tuesday of last 

 week. Gloriana was not entered, Mr. Morgan haying decided to 

 race her no more until the New York Y'. C. cruise, which made 

 the flght rather more interesting between the others of the class. 

 Nautilus was at Bay Ridge for a iTger mast, so the only starters 

 were Mineola, Sayonara and Jessica. The wind was E.N.E., 

 blowing quite strongly, the weatl- er mark being laid down ofl: the 

 Ct)ws, near Sliippan'a Point. The forty-footers have carried 

 working topsails in worse weather, but this time the forty-sis- 

 footers were content with reefed mainsails. Sayonara having her 

 topmast hou**ed. Neither wind nor sea were s=pecially bad for 

 racing, but like most of the new boats, both Mineola and Say- 

 onara will need a deal of mending before they are fit to drive at 

 the pace their sails and lead would warrant. 



The starting gun was given exactly at noon, Mineola doing a 

 bit of quick work as she came to the line with Sayonara to lee- 

 ward that sent the other boat about and made her lose "vr a 

 minute. The start was ttmad; Mineola 12:00:53. Jessica 12:01:11, 

 Sayonara 12:02:13, 



The two white boats on starboard tack headed for the Connecti- 

 cut shore, but Jessica, on port tack, started across the Sound. 

 Mineola very poon started after her, leaving Savnnara 'o work 

 the north shore alone. Once down at her work, Mineola moved 

 faster than at the start and soon had passed Jessica. When the 

 three met, after the next tack all aro'und, Sayonara crossed the 

 wake of both the others. She then held a long tack until well 

 under the Long Island shore, where she shook out her reef, the 

 other two meanwh'le working the north shore together. Jessica 

 dropping astern, until Parsonage Point was reached, where they 

 tacked and stood out to meet Sayonara, now approaching on star- 

 hoard tack. The question of the leader was quit" exciting for a 

 time, but Mineola settled it by just crossing Sayonara's hows, the 

 latter easily weathering on Jessica. Of course the two wnite 

 boats could not get so close together without an interchange of 

 compliments, and they were soon at hammer and tongs, 

 Mineola having gone abont on «ayonara's weather and staying 

 there in spite of Captain Watson's efforts as the pair tacked back 

 and forth. Finally Captain Wateon made a false tack, which 

 Captain Haff met by putting b^s boat abouf, only to find that Savo- 

 nara had filled away on the rid tack after a long shoot and was 

 clear of him. While Sayonara stood over toward Greenwich 

 Point, Mineola held tb^ port tack out into the Sound, shakimi out 

 her reef off Oyster Bay; while Sayonara set topmast and jib 

 header. When they again came together Savonara had the best 

 place, holding it to the turn, where they j ibed as follows: 



Elapsed. 



Sayonara 2 H.o 40 3 -33 27 



Mineola _ 3 .38 48 3 85 '15 



JeFsica ^ 3 40 31 3 38 50 



Sheets were started and spinakers set to port, Jessica sending 

 up a clubtopsail, the others being content with iibheaders. The 

 wind held until half the leg was covere*', when it shifted to the 

 south, so that spinakers came in and jiptopsails were set for a 

 reach home. Jessica dropped astern as the other two pushed 

 ahead for first place, the finish b<--ing very close and exciting, 

 Sayonara winning by a few seconds on even time, the allowance 

 not being calculated as the yachts were not measured. The full 

 times were: 



Start. Finish. Elapsed, 



Sayonara 12 02 13 4 10 33 4 08 20 



Mineola 12 00 iig i 10 57 4 10 04 



Jessica 13 01 41 4 21 40 4 20 08 



In the run and reach of 12 miles, Mmeola made the best time, 

 1.3<,19, Sayonara taking 1.34.53 and Jessica 1 41.18. Sayonara wins 

 $250. The regatta committee included Messrs. F. M. Scott and 

 Otto Sarony. 



SEAWANHAKA C. Y. C. SPECIAL, JULY 2. 



After paying due respect to old-time traditions by going through 

 the form of a regatta, the Seawanhaka 0. Y. C., like several other 

 clubs, has made a practical recognition of the new order of things 

 by a supplementary race for th» racing boats, which this year in- 

 cludes but two classes, the 4t)ft. and the 35ft. corrected length. 

 The annual regatta wassailed as usual on the Bay, but the special 

 race was transferred to the Sound, being set for the first day of 

 the cruise, wcdch, by the way, was a sort of quiet family reunion 

 at the club's old, and now new home, on Wednesday afternoon 

 there were at anchor the fiagship Miranda, Com. Hill; Iroquois, 

 Vice-Com. Ellis, and Vandal, Rr^ar Com. Stanton, with the 

 schooners Montauk, Crusader and Intrepid, and tte cutters and 

 sloops Shamrock, L^vira, Kathleen, Mariquita, Jessica, Nameless 

 and Mineola. The courses and conditions of Thursday's race 

 were as follows: 



Special race for the 46ft. class and 25ft. class of sloops, cutters 

 and yawls— For this race +he club offers a prize f^f the value of 

 $100 in the 46ft. class and a prize of the value of $50 in the 2.Mt. 

 Class. The race in either ch-.ss will, at the option of those enf Pil- 

 ing, be made a sweepstakes, entrance fee 325 each for the 46ft. 

 class, and $18 each for the 35ft. class, and in that case in either 

 class, if five boats start, the second boat in tnat class will save her 

 entrance money. Courses— For 46ft. class, starting between the 

 committee steamer an-i a stake boit anchored at the mouth of 

 Oyster BHy, arjund the Reo Can Buoy on Cow's Reet off Ship- 

 pan Point, leaving it on port, thence around Black Spar Ruov on 

 Matinicock Point, leaving ,ton port, thence around Red Can Buoy 

 on OrowV Reef, leavn'^ it on Btarbnard, thence across the start- 

 ing line— 35 nautical mil 8 For tne 35fG, class, starting between 

 committee steamer and a stake boat anchored at the mouth of 

 Oyster Bay, thence around ti e Red Tan Buoy on Cow's Reef off 

 SUippan Point, leaving it on port, thence around the BUck Spar 

 Buoy on Matinicock Point, leaving it on port, thence across the 

 starting line, keeping to the northward of the buoy on Center 

 Island Reef— 18 nautical miles. The compass course from the 

 starting line to Cow's Reef Buoy is aoout north, and "^rom Cow's 

 Reef Buoy to Matinicock Buoy is about southwest -^a west. A 

 one-gun start will be made at 11 A. M. precisely, without regard 

 ti' wind or weather, fog excepted. A preparatory signal will he 

 given at 10:50 A.M., hy a blast of the wh stle o'l the committee 

 steamer, when the national ensign wjll be lowered. At 11 o'clock 

 A. M. a blast of the wnis'le will be given and the club flag hoisted; 

 this will be starting time for all the yachts. The fallowing ex- 

 cepfions to the racing rules are made for this race: Full profee- 

 8i"nal crews may be carried without restriction as to number, 

 but the helmsman most be an amateur. Sailing masters may be 

 carried as mates Clubtopsa'la may be carried. In case of a 

 walk over in either class ttie value of the prize -wiil be reduced 

 one-Half. 



The course of the club in starting its special races from one gun 

 has met with the .serious disapprov"! of tbe daily papers both of 

 Boston and New Yoric, but in spue of this the reeatta committee, 

 Mesi^r . Waller C Kerr, M. M. Howland, Wm. A. Haines, VVm. 

 H. Plummer and J. Langdon Ward, vemurtd to try tbe experi- 

 ment again. .So far as the rbciiig J arhtsmen are concerned the 

 s^art was this time a success, but the dailj papers stdl refuse to 

 countenance !-uch liberties on the part ot jacht clubs, and in 

 place of tbe official times, only the times as taken unofBclally 

 from ti e crossing of the yachts were published. 



The day wa" a most unpleasant ofe, rain^■. and with little wind, 

 so little in fact at tbe advertised hour that the start was not 

 made until li:.5U, by which time a ligt t but steady easterly 

 bre'ze was blowing. Mr. Belmont was on hand to steer Mineola, 

 wbilc Mr. Herman Duryea had the stick of Sayonara. but Jepsica 

 had no Corinthian helmsman. At the last moment Mr. A. P. 

 Montant was persuaded to take the slick, though he had never 

 been aboard the yacht. Thf se three, with .Smuggler and Name- 

 less; made up the starters; Smuggler being sailed by Mr. Boury 

 and Nameless by Mr. Sander-ou. The elarting guQ was fired at 

 12:50, Nameless going over within 33j. and Mineola within ids., 

 tbe others being timed, uncfflciaily: Smuggler l>d:51:05, Sayonara 

 12:51:14, Jessica 12:51:20. Jessica earned a jibheader, the other two 

 swinging clnb topsails, while p11 carried No. 1 jibtopsiils for the 

 reach. The times at the Cow's Reel buoy were: 



Elapsed. 



Mineola 1 25 30 1 85 30 



Sayonara 1 26 11 1 36 11 



Jessica 1 37 07 1 37 07 



Nameless I 36 47 1 4ft 47 



Smuggler 1 38 45 1 48 45 



Mineola and Sayonara indulged in their usual luffing match, 

 leaving Jessica to sail her own course as the three reached across 

 to Matinicock Buiy under balloon jibtopsails. The times at this 

 mark were: Ehipsed. 



Mineola 3 36 00 1 10 30 



Sayrnara 3 36 16 1 10 05 



Jessica 3 b6 48 1 09 41 



Nameless 2 .59 SO 1 22 43 



Smuggler - 3 01 30 1 23 35 



There was now a fresh breeze, with sea enough to bother the 

 25-footers. The fleet divided, the larger boats going back as they 

 had come, while the two little ones went directly up hill to the 

 finish, a hard hammer in which Nameless tairlv beat her rival. 

 As long as the wind las'ed, Jessica did good work on the third leg, 

 carrying small jibtopsail and jibheader. the others carrying club- 

 topsails, hut sailing for a time with no jibtopsails. The times at 

 the Cow's Beef Bu.jy wt re: Elapsed. 



Mm- Ola 4 09 36 1 33 36 



Jessica 4 13 17 1 36 39 



Sayonara 4 16 55 1 40 39 



The last leg was made with balloon jibtopaail on Mlaeola, and 

 No. 1 on the other two, the times being: Ela psed. 



Mineola 4 44 38 0 34 53 



Jessica 4 49 24 0 30 07 



Sayonara 4 43 31 0 3i5 36 



Nameless 4 57 20 1 57 50 



SmuBgler 5 GO 12 1 58 52 



In the 6 miles to windward. Nameless beat Smuggler Im- OSe., 

 while over the course Nameless won by 2m, 52s. The fuU times 

 were: 



Start. Finish. Elapsed. Corrected. 



Mineola 12 50 00 4 44 28 3 54 28 8 54 28 



Jessica 13 £0 00 4 49 24 3 59 34 3 55 26 



Sayonara 12 50 00 4 52 31 4 02 81 4 03 31 



Nameless 12 50 00 4 57 20 4 07 20 4 07 30 



Smuggler .13 50 00 5 00 13 4 10 13 4 10 13 



The corrected times of the 46-f03ter8 are only estimated, Mine - 



