Jan. 37, 1894.] 



FOREST AND STREAM. 



71 



established, and are not likely to be determined in the 

 near future. I shall ftry to show Mr. von Lengerke that 

 he wrongfully finds fault with me on the principal ques- 

 tions at issue. 



I made my reports as exhaustive as possible, I gave all 

 the figures as they were obtained and employed as the 

 basis of comparison in order to afford the readers the 

 opportunity to judge for themselves if my method of 

 judging the powders was a fair and correct one. I 

 should have been thankful to Mr. von Lengerke if he had 

 shown that mistakes were made, since I do not claim in- 

 fallibility for myself and cheerfully acknowledge an 

 error if I have made it. I have nothing to say against 

 Mr. von Lengerke's objection to the standard of merits 

 as laid down in my report. This settles down to a ques- 

 tion of difference of opinion, and a difference of opinion 

 is natural and permissible. 



Mr. von Lengerke calls attention to the fact that I once 

 had business dealings with Messrs. Wolff & Co., the 

 manufacturers of Walsrode powder in Germany, or, as 

 he puts it, that I was interested in Walsrode powder, and 

 that I am now on very friendly terms with the firm. This 

 statement. I presume, was made to substantiate his asser- 

 tion that I have been prejudiced in favor of the powder. 

 The facts in the premises are as follows: About four 

 years ago I f urnished to Messrs. Wolff & Co. , two car- 

 tridge loading machines patented to me the same as I 

 sold similar machines to other European powder mills, 

 ammunition manufacturers and military authorities, and 

 in return I bought of that firm, on the same terms as 

 others, powder, and disposed of the latter in the same 

 way as others. I have had no business transaction with 

 Wolff & Co. for the last three years and am not interested, 

 directly or indirectly, in Walsrode or any other powder 

 abroad or in this country. If I were, I would not con- 

 sider m yself qualified to take an active part in establishing 

 and maintaining in this country a testing institution, and 

 would certainly not blame any one to look upon my asser- 

 tion that, so far as I am concerned, the establishment 

 will be on carried upon a strictly impartial basis, as a de- 

 ceit. 



I am on friendly, but by no means on very friendly, 

 terms not alone with Wolff & Co. but with all other pow- 

 der, gun and ammunition manufacturers with whom I 

 ever came in contact, and I shall make due efforts to estab- 

 lish friendly relations with all interested parties in 

 America, and last but not least with Messrs. von Lengerke 

 & Detmold. If I fail in accomplishing this, the fault will 

 surely not be on my side. 



Of course Mr. von Lengerke is the sole master of his 

 thoughts. If he thinks that my former relations to Wolff 

 & Co. have clouded my judgment, I fail to see how I can 

 convince him of the contrary. 



Mr. von Lengerke complains of a. lack of uniformity in 

 my figures of bursting strain and velocities. He thinks 

 something must have been wrong, that either my instru- 

 ments are unreliable or were improperly handled. His 

 conclusions are false in both respects. My instruments 

 are reliable and they were manipulated right and by ex- 

 perienced persons. The variations were solely due to the 

 bad behavior of the powders, or to be more precise, the 

 powders simply behaved as powders are likely to behave. 



The chronograph is not a difficult instrument to handle. 

 It can be manipulated by any person of average intelli- 

 gence — yes, even by a boy, after a few hours' instruction 

 and a day's practice. It weighs less than 501bs. , and does 

 not require a foundation of rocks and concrete to stand 

 upon, as Mr. von Lengerke describes it, and as it is suited 

 for a building 20 stories high, all it wants is a firm founda- 

 tion to prevent its being jarred, that's all. The electric 

 current must be brought in harmony with the magnets 

 and maintained there. For this purpose the instrument 

 is adjusted every time and day it is used, and regulated 

 at certain intervals during the work. 



These precautions were all taken at Chicago. The 

 chronograph was placed in a separate room and building 

 some distance from the place where the shooting was 

 done. At Carney's Point the chronograph of Messrs. 

 DuPont was employed, which stands on a solid founda- 

 tion, and was manipulated by a gentleman possessing a 

 high degree of knowledge on ballistics, and who has been 

 brought up in the powder manufacturing business. This 

 instrument registered the same irregularities as they were 

 found at Chicago, not because there was anything wrong 

 with it, but simply for the reason that the powders 

 repeated there the jumps they made at Chicago. 



There will always be variations as long as the primer, 

 the wad, the crimp, the cartridge chamber, the bore of 

 the barrel and other causes too numerous to mention, 

 have a bearing upon the explosion and the behavior of a 

 propelling agent in the gun barrel. 



It is true, as Mr. von Lengerke says, that black powder 

 generally gives very uniform results. But the tests were 

 not carried on with a view to determine the qualities of 

 the different black powders. Not all kinds of black pow- 

 ders were used, and of those employed only the cheap 

 grades were taken. If the black powders had been in- 

 cluded in the test, the better grades would have been also 

 tried, and in such a case the evenness, no doubt, would 

 have been much more satisfactory. 



I am not in position at this juncture to express an opin- 

 ion on the merits of the different black powders made and 

 used in this country, but I do believe that Mr. von Len- 

 gerke's assertion that "Dead Shot" FFG is the most even 

 and reliable in the world, is a bold one, and that he will 

 have quite a task on hand in substantiating this claim any- 

 thing like convincingly. 



All nitro powders, when tested under different conditions 

 show great variations. They are composed of such chemi- 

 cals which are more or less subject to change through the 

 effects of storing, dry heat, humidity and cold. They, as 

 a rule, develop their gases more suddenly than black 

 powder, are particularly sensitive to artificial obstructions 

 in the gun barrel, to increased charges, etc. But even 

 when the charges are not increased beyond the limit, 

 wheu all other conditions appear to be in a normal state, 

 it will occasionally happen that the regular service charge 

 of a nitro powder produces a bursting strain, or as it is 

 sometimes wrongfully called, initial pressure, far higher 

 than the average gun barrel can stand. This occurs even 

 in England, where the climate is comparatively uniform 

 and also the percentage of moisture in the air. Nitro 

 powders have a good deal in common with tamed wild 

 beasts. A wild animal tamed and brought up in captivity 

 may appear docile and gentle for a long time, but its wild 

 nature is liable to show itself at any moment. A smoke- 



nevertheless more treacherous in its action than the black 

 powder, it requires care and constant watching. 



Mr. von Lengerke quotes the London Field as an 

 authority on ballistics. It may be of interest for him to 

 know, that the Field's powder tests are carried out by 

 taking recoil, velocity, penetration and pattern simul- 

 taneously. In Chicago only the bursting strain and 

 velocities were taken together, and this can and must be 

 done. But the method employed at Chicago comes nearer 

 to his view, as he will see, than that followed by his 

 authority. 



The Chicago and Carney's Point powder tests, as every 

 one knows, bore a public character. They could have 

 been and were witnessed and controlled by disinterested 

 parties. TheE. C, Schultze, S. S., American wood and 

 DuPont powders were all loaded by Mr. Wm. M. Thomas, 

 of the TJ. M. C. Co., who performed his work carefully 

 and thoroughly, and who has no especial love for any- 

 particular powder. He commands an amount of experi- 

 ence in loading nitro powders possessed by very few 

 persons the world over. 



Not all of the Walsrode powder used was furnished by 

 the Walsrode agent, some was procured by outsiders and 

 loaded in shells by machinery in Germany a year prior. 

 These shells were used as they came. 



Mr. von Lengerke says that I ought to have stated what 

 wadding material was used. This question is answered 

 in my report not less than sixteen times. The U. M. C. 

 Co.'s wadding, consisting of a trap wad, a first quality 

 white felt and a black edge wad, was employed for all 

 nitro powders except the Walsrode, for which the cheap so- 

 called Express wad was used. The diameter of all felt wads 

 was the same. The figures taken for comparison were 

 those, as stated in the report, obtained for all other pow- 

 ders with the Smokeless and Nitro Club shells, for Wals- 

 rode those of the special shells. The powders were thus 

 brought on an equal footing as regards the best adapted 

 shells, and the same rule applies to the wadding material. 



Where the powders were measured this work was done 

 as carefully as possible, and the variations as determined 

 by weighing five loads of each of the powders were less 

 than -f Igr. The actual figures were as follows: 



3drs. of Schultze powder by measure weighed respectively: 



1. 4a*, 0 2. 43-1,0 3. 422,, 4. 42a, 0 5. 42',o grains. 

 Mrs. of E. 0. powder by measure weighed respectively: 



1.44 2.44 3. 44> 10 4.44 5. 442,„ grains. 

 3drs. of S. S, powder by measure weighed respectively: 



1. 38*,. 2. 38' 10 3. 38 2 10 37*i» 5. 38* )0 grains. 

 3drs. American wood powder by measure weighed respectively: 

 1.37 2.37 3. 37i 10 4. 37^0 5. 36 9 10 grains. 



Does Mr. von Lengerke claim that a difference of lgr. 

 one way or the other, or even 2grs. , accounts for the irregu- 

 larities? Should any powder be so'extremely sensitive to 

 such trifling differences in the charges? 



AH nitro powders, as previously stated, react compara- 

 tively very heavy to largely increased charges, bulk for 

 bulk, the Walsrode undoubtedly more so than others. I 

 agree with Mr. von Lengerke that a double charge of 

 Walsrode powder is quite certain to do mischief. But 

 does any one claim that such a charge can be used with 

 impunity? Can any other nitro powder be used in such 

 extreme loads? Does not my report show that as far as 

 the reaction to increased charges is concerned, Schultze 

 powder approaches the black powder nearer than the 

 Walsrode? Has the former not been credited with nearly 

 double as many points of merits as Walsrode in this de- 

 partment? 



It was not my office to judge the powders from a com- 

 mercial point of view or from the standpoint of conven- 

 ience. Had I done so the various powders would indeed 

 have made a different showing. I could only, as I did, 

 rate the powders strictly on the basis of their relative bal- 

 listic merits. Mr. von Lengerke's censure of the Wals- 

 rode and his claims for the Schultze and E. C. powders 

 do not concern me, neither do I find it necessary or 

 advisable to discuss with him the best basis 

 and method for judging a gunpowder's qualities, 

 but I must correct one statement he makes. He says the 

 Walsrode powder was fired from the special shells only. 

 My report does not say so. Mr. von Lengerke pronounces 

 it as wrong when I credit a powder with a high point of 

 merit on account of its comparative low bursting strain 

 in view of the fact that this powder shows a mean cor- 

 responding velocity somewhat below the average. Here 

 I beg to differ with him. I for one will rather take say 

 five yards less distance in killing force in the bargain for 

 the guarantee that the powder I use is less dangerous 

 than others and less liable^ to damage my gun, and per- 

 haps do me bodily harm, and I believe there are others 

 who feel the same way. He claims that a certain quan- 

 tity of bursting strain is necessary and essential for a 

 sufficient good killing force. I hold that the lower the 

 gas pressure is in proportion to the velocity, and provided 

 the latter is equivalent to a satisfactory penetration, the 

 higher such a powder ought to be rated. I can furnish 

 Mr. von Lengerke black powders which will produce a 

 higher average velocity than any nitro powder with about 

 one-half the bursting strain of the latter. Such a powder 

 means the least danger for the gun and gunner. 



Whenever we are in a position to claim for a nitro pow- 

 der that it will not produce a higher bursting strain than 

 a good quality of black powder, that it is just as safe as the 

 latter, then the days of black powder will be counted, in 

 spite of the difference in price. I believe such a powder 

 will make its appearance some day, but it is not in the 

 market now. 



From his statement I am led to infer that Mr, von Len- 

 gerke believes that Curtis & Harvey's or any other equally 

 good grade of black powder will produce a higher bursting 

 strain than the cheaper grades of black powder. If his 

 crusher gauge has shown him such to be the case, I can 

 only advise him to drop it, and to follow the example of 

 Messrs. DuPont and the U. M. C. Co. and substitute for it 

 a pressure gun with the modprn spring device, as I em- 

 ploy it, for his crusher gauge then has deceived him for 

 once, and very badly at that. 



Mr. von Lengerke thinks that I am mistaken when I 

 say that the difference in the arrival of the pellets between 

 those propelled by a quicker-burning black powder and 

 a coarser-grained, slower-burning powder practically 

 amounts tovery little. If he does not think that I know 

 what I speak of he may look over his files of the London 

 Field, one of bis recognized authorities in the premises, 

 and he will find that the Field has arrived at the same 

 conclusion as I have. 



I am very sorry that it has not been my good fortune to 

 avail myself of Mr. von Lengerke's help at Chicago and 



have his co-operation in the future. I appreciate his as 

 sistance very highly indeed, and am happy to believe that 

 henceforth all points of difference between us can be set • 

 tied on practical grounds, and that I shall not be called 

 upon again to trespass so largely on the space of your pa- 

 per and on the indulgence of your readers under similar 

 circumstances. The testing institution ought to be the 

 place for Mr. von Lengerke to enlighten me on the merits 

 and demerits of a propelling agent, to which he, like all 

 others, is most welcome. I am not too proud to learn, and 

 do not claim to monopolize all the| knowledge on the 

 theory of shot shooting. Armin Tenner,. 



Matlock, la. — Editor Forest and Stream: I have been 

 much interested in reading the results of the late powder 

 test as carried on by Mr. Armin Tenner, but there are 

 some points on which I wish some further information, 

 and hope that Mr. Tenner or some of Forest and Stream's 

 readers will enlighten me. 



In testing the black powders for bursting strain,velocity, 

 pattern, etc., (1) would not the higher grade powder have 

 given much better results than the common brands such 

 as were tested, and (2) would not the coarser grain pow- 

 der of the brands tested have given better results than the 

 fine grain? (3) In what shells were the black powders 

 tested, (4) and would other and higher grade shells have 

 given better results? (5) What kind and quantity of wad- 

 ding was used, and were the black and nitro powders 

 wadded alike? 



(6) In table I, where the nitro powders were tested with 

 plack powder priming, the American wood, Schultze and 

 E. C. powders fell so far below the requisite velocity as to 

 be useless for live bird shooting. This is rather surprising 

 as at many large tournaments scores of 90 per cent, and 

 over have been made with these powders loaded in com- 

 mon shells with black powder priming. During the past 

 season I have used for my duck and chicken shooting 

 3idrs. Schultze powder in a U. M. C. "New Club" shell 

 primed with |dr. FFG black powder, one card and 

 two black-edge wad&over powder, ljoz. shot in a 10-gauge 

 gun, and it gave me "the very best of satisfaction. (7) It 

 would seem as if the powders were not so loaded as to 

 secure the best results, as in many cases throughout the 

 test the American wood and the S. S. and the E. C. pow- 

 ders did not give sufficient velocity to be regarded as a 

 killing charge, while we all know that these powders, as 

 loaded for the use of expert live bird shots, give almost 

 perfect results. You may say they use heavier charges, 

 but Mr. Tenner states as his opinion that 3drs. and l§oz. 

 of shot will give more satisfactory results than a larger 

 charge. There must be a discrepancy somewhere, and I 

 hope Mr. Tenner will explain it for the benefit not only of 

 myself but of others who may have noticed the same 

 thing. P- C. Bishop. 



i powder_too may behave well right along, but it is Carney's Point. I am glad to know, however, that I shall 



Editor Forest and Stream: 



In reply to your correspondent's queries: (1) Probably 

 yes. (2) Hardly, if both grains were of the same grade. 

 (3) In the new Club shells. (4) No. (5) U. M. _C. Co.'s 

 wadding, consisting of a trap wad, a felt and a thin black 

 edge wad, or several of the latter only. The wadding of 

 the E. C, S. S., American wood, Schultze and DuPont's 

 Smokeless powders consisted of a trap, a white felt and a 

 black-edge wad. (6) The use of common primers primed 

 with black powder has been discarded in Europe, and in 

 some countries the priming with black powder is prohib- 

 ited by law. If Mr. Bishop and others employ idr. of 

 black powder for priming their shells, they may thereby 

 secure a pretty thorough combustion of the nitro powder 

 charge, but the pattern will certainly be more uneven 

 than with the No. 3 primer, and under certain conditions 

 such a quantity of black powder may impart to the nitro 

 powder a high degree of violence. The bursting strain of 

 such a load may not be fatal to one particular gun, but 

 many guns will not stand such a pressure. 



I would not recommend more than lgr. black powder 

 for such a purpose, and if only this quantity, as it ought 

 ought to be, is employed, the penetration will not reach 

 the limit which governs a corresponding load of nitro 

 powder exploded by a No. 3 primer; 3*drs. Schultze pow- 

 der for a 10-bore gun may be regarded as a light charge, 

 and such a charge, even if primed with Jdr. black powder, 

 may still be considered as comparatively safe. But some 

 gunners load 4 and 4£drs., and these maximum loads 

 should not be primed with idr. black powder. 



If Mi-. Bishop has never met with any hang-fires or 

 faced some extremely wild shots, i. e., open patterns, 

 with his ammunition, he has been exceedingly lucky. 

 All the powders Mr. Bishop refers to were loaded at 

 Carney's Point by Mr. Wm. M. Thomas, of the U. M. C. 

 Co. and under my supervision and those of others. He 

 may rest assured that all powders were loaded carefully, 

 and properly. Mr. Bishop evidently has not studied the 

 fWi-es of velocities carefully, for as a matter of fact, 

 S. S. and Schultze powders developed under normal con- 

 ditions very high velocities. E. C. powder, too, made a 

 very good showing in this respect, and American wood 

 only lacked somewhat in velocity with the increased shot 

 charge. • 



The different powders were rated for penetration as 

 follows: American wood, 16 points; S. S., 18 points; 

 DuPont's, 19 points; Schultze, 18 points; Schultze (Pomp- 

 ton), 20 points; black powder, 20 points; E. C, 18 points; 

 Walsrode, leaf, 17 points; Walsrode, grains, 18 points. 

 If anything, these figures prove that there was not such 

 a marked difference in point of penetration as Mr. Bishop 

 makes it appear, and I fail to see why he should speak of 

 a "discrepancy somewhere." Abmin Tenner. 



Kittanning, Pa. — Editor Forest and Stream: I would 

 ask Mr. Armin Tenner a question in regard to Table O in 

 your issue of Dec. 23. In the result of moisture test 

 lie places the total loss in velocity at 43ft. for Walsrode 

 powder in grains (taken for example only), and which he 

 has obtained by adding the loss in velocity when subjected 

 to 75 per cent. 'humidity to the loss in velocity when sub- 

 letted to 85 per cent, of moisture. Now, it seems to me 

 that the total loss should only be 38ft. instead of 43ft., for 

 the loss of 5ft. in subjecting the powder to 75 per cent, 

 was increased to 38ft. by an increase of 10 per cent, of 

 moisture, or an increase of 33ft. for an increase in mois- 

 ture of 10 per cent. . ' . .. 



It is reasonable to suppose there was a loss m velocity 

 for every per cent, of increase of humidity, and when the 

 moisture reached 75 per cent, there was a loss of 5ft. On 

 thp same line, a certain loss resulted from an ifi crease ot 

 moisture of 85 per cent.; but it is not to be supposed that 



