162 
FOREST AND STREAM, 
[Feb. 22, 1896. 
The Duu! raven Inquiry. 
MB. HERRESHOFF'S EVIDENCE. 
Mb. Nathaniel Grkbnb Herreshoff, designer of Defender, was 
the first witness called by the defense after the opening by Mr. Choate. 
The following testimony was given on three different occasions, 
Messrs, Fish, Canfield and Dunraven being examined in the intervals. 
Nathaniel G. Herreshoff, called as a witness on. behalf of Mr. Iselin, 
testified as follows: 
P Examined by Mr. Choate: 
_Q.— You are the designer, or one of the designers, and builder of the 
Defender? A.— Yes. 
Q.— When was she first begun? A.— The latter part of last Feb- 
ruary. 
Q.— When was she completed? A.— Completed in July. 
Q.— She was designed and built by you with a view of sailing and 
winning the America's Cup under the provisions of the deed, was she 
not? A.— Yes. 
Q.— "Will you please to state to the committee what your general 
plan was by whfch she was to be adapted within the 90ft. limited by 
the deed, to the object you bad in view? A. — My design was about 
89ft. of waterline, to come 1ft. within the limit. There should be some 
leeway in case we should want to ballast her, and the construction 
was carefully studied to get it as light as possible, and carry as large 
an amount of ballast as she could. I figured very carefully to get the 
whole amount of ballast in one casting in the keel. 
Q — So that if you hit it exactly she would have to carry no loose 
ballast? A —Yes. This we were very fortunate in, the casting com- 
ing out exactly as we intended, very closely indeed ; and the vessel, 
when constructed, came very nearlv to her intended waterline. In 
the first race she was perhaps J4in. higher out of the water than de- 
signed. In that condition she appeared to have plenty of stability. 
In fact, more than seemed to be necessary for the purpose of racing 
in our waters here, and it was soon der ided to increase her Bails. 
There was no change in the ballast of the boat from the time she first 
floated, in any way, until her cabin was taken out, just previous to 
her Cut* races. 
Q —I will come to that more particularly. You know her execfc dis- 
placement in the water, and you know exactly how much each, inch 
of immersion would lengthen her load waterline, do you not? You 
have calculated all that? A. — Yes. 
Q —Were you present when she was measured on Friday, Sept. 6? 
Q —Yes. 
Q— And the measurement then proved her load waterline to be 88 45? 
A.— Yes. 
Q. — Now, will you state to the committee how much her load water- 
line would have been lengthened beyond that by an immersion of 4in. 
deeper? A.— The angle of the stem and sternpost is such that it 
would be lengthened almost exactly 8in. with each inch of immer- 
sion. 
Q —That would be 32in. ? A.-32in. for 4in. 
Q.— Carrying her from 88J4 to 91ft. and a fraction? A.— 91ft. and a 
fraction ; yes. 
Q —Which would have made her more than a foot longer than the 
outside limits permitted by the deed? A.— Exactly. 
Q.— That is mathematical, is it not, as you stated? A.— As nearly as 
a calculation can be arrived at. 
Q.— Can you also tell the committee how much additional weight 
would have had to be placed in her to immerse her 4in. deeper in the 
water ? A.— I have a memorandum here. 
Q. — That is capable of exact ascertainment/ is it not? A. — Yes. 
(Lioking at memorandum.) This calculation I made recently. 
4in. would require 28,5411bs. 
Q —That is fourteen short tons? A.— Fourteen short tons. A little 
over. Equal to 12 7 long tons. 
Q — Yes; but 14 tons of 2,0001bs. ? A.— Yes. 
Q,— Did you accompany her on the trial races or any of them? A. — 
Yes; all of the trial races. 
Q.— Did she have any loose ballast on hoard? A — None whatever. 
Q.— And she had none when she came into the Erie Basin after the 
last of her trial races? A.— No. 
Q.— That was Aug. 31? A— Yes. 
Q — At that time had the Valkyrie arrived? A.— Yes; she had ar- 
rived. 
Q.— Had you seen her, or had you learned from information how 
she was stripped inside? A.— I learned from information. 
Q.— What did you learn about that? A.— That she had no cabin in 
her; she was quite bare inside. 
Q— Down to that time of Aug. 31, how was the Defender equipped 
inside? What tanks had she, and what removable objects? A.— She 
was fully equipped to carry a crew, the whole complement; about 
forty, I think. 
Q. — What water tanks and waste tanks? A. — Quite a large water 
tank and waste tank and ice tank — ice chest— and necessary pumps. 
Q.— And the trimming of the cabin, and partitions for passengers? 
A. — Yes. Everything was light for the purpose of a racing yacht, but 
it was very complete. 
Q.— Did you have a consultation with Mr. Iselin, or with any of her 
owners, as to what had better be done with her to match her with 
the Valkyrie? A.— Yes. 
Q.— Will you state what the result was? What passed between you, 
and what was concluded? A.— I do not remember the exact words, 
but the result was that we decided to take the cabin out and put her 
in a condition equivalent to that of the Valkyrie. 
Q.— You did not then know how much weight would be so taken 
out of her, did you? A.— No. I made an estimate that there would 
be taken out about three tons. 
Q.— About 6,0001bs? A.— And Mr. Iselin had two tons of lead sent to 
New Rochelle to put in the place of it. 
Q — That was done at New Rochelle? A.— Yes. 
q _were you ur> there? A.— Yes. 
Q —Did you see it done, or see her after it was done? A.— Yes. I 
was there while it was being done. It was done on Wednesday and 
Thursday, 
Q — Wednesday and Thursday prior to the 6th and 7th? A.— Yes. 
Q — Wednesday and Thursday would be the 4th and 5th of Septem- 
ber? A. — Yes. 
Q —Did you see the material that was taken out of her weighed? 
A.— I did not. 
Q— Was it reported to you ? A.— It was reported. 
Q — How much? A.— Seven thousand pounds or a little over. I 
think there was a small fraction over 7,000lbs., as I remember. 
Q — Did Mr. Iselin take your judgment as to what should be substi- 
tuted to equalize that weight taken out? If so, please state to the 
committee, if it was not the same number of pounds, what made the 
difference? A. — Yes; I think we decided to put back a smaller 
amount than we took out; about l.OOQlbs. 
Q,— Six thousand pounds instead of seven? A.— Yes. 
Q.— Why? A.— Because it would be packed down low, to give her 
much more stability thaa the weights that were taken out, 
Mr. Choate— I do not understand that. 
Mr. Herreshoff— To keep the same stability as nearly as possible and 
get a lighter displacement. 
Mr. Rives— Get the weight lower down. 
Q — Lead packed closely at the keel would be equivalent to this 
larger quantity distributed over the various upper parts o£ the vessel? 
A. — Yes. 
Q —Did you so advise Mr, Iselin? A.— Yes; we consulted together 
ana decided upon that. 
Q.— And was the lead ballast brought up to New Rochelle? A — 
Yes. 
Q.— How much? A.— Two tons. 
Q.— There are about twenty-one pigs to the ton, are there not? A — 
Generally; yes. 
Q.— They weigh about lOOlbs. ? A.— Generally ; yes. 
Q.— Do you know of that being placed on board there? A.— Two 
tons were placed on board on Thursday. 
Q.— And that is all that came to New Rochelle? A.— Yes. 
Q — Now tell what afterward happened, so far as you know, down 
to the time of the measurement on Friday? A. — So far as I know I 
went to Erie Basin by train from New Rochelle to get the necessary 
measurements of the Valkyrie. It I had gone on the Defender it 
would have been a little late. It was intended to measure the Valkyrie 
first, and I tbink that was going on at the time the Defender arrived 
there. After the Valkyrie's load line was measured we decided to 
measure the Defender's load line. 
Q.— You arrived at the Erie Basin? A.— I arrived at the Erie Basin 
by land; by train, 
Q.— Before the measurement of the Defender had taken place, after 
that of the Valkyrie had taken place? A. — No; before either of them 
had been measured. 
Q.— Do you know of some lead being brought on board the Defender 
there? A.— Yes. In the first place, after getting through with the 
measurement of the Valkyrie's waterline, I personally made a pre- 
liminary measurement of the Defender's waterline to Bee about where 
she was setting, for verification of the amount that they should put in, 
and found she was light and decided to put in the full ton that had 
been sent forward. 
Q.— Was that put on board of her in your presence? A. — Yes. 
Q. — What was the amount of it? A.— One ton. 
Q.— And no more? A.— That is all. 
KyMr. Rives: 
Q.— This preliminary measurement that you made was at the Erie 
Basin, was it? A.— Yes. 
Q.— After she got there and while she was alongside of the wharf? 
A.— It was for my own satisfaction to know how she was setting. I 
wanted to get tb« ballast in before the final measurement took place, 
Q.— I understand that this ton of lead was added after you had made 
this preliminary measurement? A.— Yes; just before the final meas- 
urement. 
By Mr. Choate: 
Q.— Where was this ton placed on the Defender? A.— It was placed 
very near amidships on the cabin floor, directly over where we in- 
tended stowing it. 
Q— You were present, were you not, when the measurement took 
place? A.— Yes. I witnessed the measurement of both yachts on be- 
half of Mr. Iselin. 
Q.— From that time will you state how much you were na the De- 
fender until she was remeasured on the Sunday ? A, — From the time 
we got through the measurement on Friday, I was not on board of 
her again until Saturday morning about 8 o'clock. 
Q.— Saturday morning about 8 o'clock, down at the Horseshoe, I 
suppose, inside the Hook? A.— Yes. 
Q.— How did you get on board of her then? A.— I went on board 
from a steam yacht. 
Q— With Mr. Iselin? A.— Yes. 
Q.— Were you then on her from that, time until the race of that day 
was completed? A.— Yes; until thev anchored at Bay Ridge. 
Q— And then you left her? A.— Yes. 
Q— And were again present at the remeasurement on Sunday? A. 
—Yes. 
Q —What time did you leave heron the Friday? How soon after 
the measurement? A— It was directly after 'the measurement. I 
should judge about 2:30, or in that neighborhood, possibly a little 
later. 
Q.— The remeasurement on Sunday, it was agreed, corresponded 
as exactly as two measurements could to that on Friday? A.— Yes. 
Q —Now, have you made drawings, or have drawings been made 
under your direction, of the waterline as ascertained on Sunday? A.— 
Not under my direction, no. Those are Mr. Iselin's. 
Q.— These are not yours? A— No. 
Q.— On the morning of the 7th, the morning of the race, what time 
was it when you got on board the Defender? A.— I think it was about 
8. I am not sure. 
Q.— What did you do from then until the time the race began? A. — 
There was very little to do, any more than watching the setting of the 
sails, and making general preparations for the start. One thing that 
we did do; very soon, I think, or almost directly after I went aboard 
with Mr. Iselin, we went below with Capt. Haff. He wanted us to see 
the positi m that the lead had been stowed In. 
Q.— You mean this extra ton? A.— The extra ton. 
Q —Will you tell the committee in your own way just what was done 
and what you saw, and how you were enabled to see it? A.— The floor 
was taken up, and I merely looked down from above at the position it 
was stowed in. 
Q— What did you see? A.— I saw the lead stowed away on top of 
the keel. 
Q — And that the pigs had been cut? A.— The pigs had been cut. 
Q.— Each in two? A.— Yes. 
Q.— Could you see whether there were three tons there or seventeen 
tons? A— Yes, I think so. 
Q — You are sufficiently familiar with that matter to tell whether, as 
you observed it. there was anything more than the two tons that had 
been put on at New Rochelle and the other ton that had been put on 
at the Erie Basin? A.— Yes; I think I could tell. 
Q.— That was all there was? A.— Yes. 
Q — You went for the purpose of seeing, and you did examine and 
satisfy yourself before the race began? A.— Yes. 
Q-— How long was that before the race? A.— That was in the morn- 
ing, between 8 and 9 o'clock. 
Q.— That was before Lord Dunraven put his representative on board? 
A.— Yes. 
Q.— You inspected that job pretty thoroughly, did you not, that day ? 
A.— Oh, yes, I generally inspected it. 
Q.— Was there anything else on board of her to replace what had 
been taken out at New Rochelle, excepting these three tons of lead ? 
A.— No. 
Q.— Were there any water tanks, or waste tanks, or anything that 
would weigh? A. — No. 
Q.— If there was any water, I suppose, to drink, you can tell what 
there was of that? A.— There was a small amount on board, enough 
for the use of that day. 
Q-— You remember that there was one can of water brought aboard 
—a milk can? A.— I do not remember particularly about that. I 
know they had water on board. 
Q.— You sailed the whole of the race of that day, and at no time did 
she have anything more on board than you have stated? A.— No. No 
heavier in the water than she had sailed before. 
Q — Do you know anything of an examination to see if there was 
any water in her shoe, or did you not take part in that? A. — I do not 
remember particularly that morning, but we generally did look at that 
before the races. As a rule, we always do. 
Q — Was there any possibility of any water ballast or any other bal- 
last being used on her that day, except these three tons of lead? A,— 
No, certainly not. 
Q.— Could you tell— I suppose you are something of an expert— if 
there had been ten or fourteen tons of extra weight put into her? 
Would you have recognized it as she sailed? A.— Yes, I think I 
would. 
Q — How would it have affected her so that you could tell that 
there was such an extra weight there? A.— There would be quite a 
difference to her motion in a seaway. 
Q.— One that you could recognize? A.— Yes. 
Q.— There was something peculiar in the boom and spars of this 
Defender, was there not? The use of aluminum? A.— We used a steel 
boom and steel gaff, finally, in the place of wood. 
Q.— When were they put in her-the steel boom? A.— That was first 
tried on the 31st day of August, just before going to the dry dock. 
Q.— After she came in there on the 31st of August? A.— No; wehad 
been out trying her the night before— the night of the 30th. 
Q.— You were present at the remeasurement? A.— Yes. 
Q — And you know that both measurements were properly con- 
ducted? A.— Yes. 
Q.— And that they corresponded exactly ? A,— Yes; perfectly satis- 
factory. 
Q.— When you came on board at 8 o'clock on Saturday morning, the 
7th, what did you observe as to how she lay in the water? Did you 
think she was a different vessel from what you had seen her in the 
Erie Basin? A,— No, I did not notice anything different. 
Q — Did you see any difference in her trim? A.— I did not notice it. 
Q.— Her immersion, or the load water length? A,— Of course when 
all the crew were on board, with all their cots, that put her down some- 
what in the water. 
Q.— The weight of the cols? What difference does that make? The 
crew were on her when she was measured, were they not? A.— Oh, yeB. 
Q. — Was there any appreciable weight or difference occasioned by 
those cots? A.— No the position in the forecastle. That is further 
forward. There would be very little difference in the trim. 
Q. — How was the water there that morning? 
Mr. Whitney— Where? 
Mr. Choate— Down at the Horseshoe, when he boarded her? 
A.— As far as the wind was concerned, the wind was light. It made 
a very little ripple, but as I remember there was quite a swell, and 
the yachts were heaving a good deal by the steamers going by; the 
Long Branch steamers. 
Q.— Can you tell whether there was motion both ways, pitching and 
rolling? A.— Yes; I remember that particularly because the Hattie 
Palmer was laying alongside of her when I first went aboard, and it 
occasionally took a number of men to keep her clear. 
Q.— Had you observed the weather the night before?. A.— Yes. 
Q— What was it? A.— The wind was fresh, east, and had the 
appearance of being a strong breeze the next day. We expected a 
stormy day. 
Q.— What, in your judgment, would have been the effect upon the 
Defender, as to her chances of winning the race, of putting 10 to 
14 tons of ballast on her more than you had advised? 
Mr. Herreshoff— Do you mean on that day— that Saturday? 
Mr. Choate— Yes. 
A.— I think the chance would have been very poor indeed. 
Q — A very poor one indeed? A. — Yes. 
Q— How would it have affected her sailing qualities? A.— I think 
she would have been slower with that weight on board in that light 
breeze. 
Q - la your judgment, could you have told a difference of a foot in 
her load waterline, or 3 or 4in. even of immersion, as compared with 
the time of her measurement on Friday, as the water was on Saturday 
morning, when you boarded her? 
Mr. Herreshoff— Do you mean from alongside? 
Mr. Choate— Yes, as you came up alongside, and as you went on 
board of her, 
A.— Yes; I think I could tell the difference, although in a sea it 
would be very uncertain. 
Q— You could not have formed a reliable judgment? A.— No. 
Mr. Askwith— The comment I make upon this gentleman's evidence 
is that he came down in the morning and took a cursory look into the 
hold. As I say, we are not here prosecuting. 
Mr. Choate~It was not very cursory as he describes it. SjIlL you 
do not wish to ask him auy questions? 
Mr, Askwith— We are not proving any case now. We say it cannot 
be proven. I do not see what question to ask. 
By Capt. Mahan: 
Q.— Wtiat was this hole in the side that we hear so much of ? A —It 
was the delivery to the bilge pump. 
Q— With your knowledge of her frame do yon know where that is— 
whether it was^above water? A.— No. Only from this drawing, which 
was very accurately made. I know it was intended to be just about 
at the waterline, 
Q.— When she was in her sailing trim? A. — Yes. That was the ob- 
ject, to always put those pipes near the waterline, so that they can he 
got at to clean the vessel a little bit, in case of accidents or a little 
leak. It is better to have them near the waterline than down below. 
Of course, if they are high up above the waterline they would be un- 
sightly. 
By Mr. Whitney: 
Q,— What time did you go to Bay Ridge that night after the first 
race? A— I should judge it was between 8 and 9 o'clock— nearer 9 
than 8. 
Q —Were you towed up the Bay ? A.— Yes. 
Q.— It was dark, I suppose, when you arrived? A.— Oh, yes, it 
was dark. It turned dark when we were just outside of Sandy Hook. 
By Mr. Askwith: 
Q —Do I understand that the cots were in, on board? A.— I do not 
remember whether they were on board then or not. The Hattie 
Palmer was alongside, and the men were at their breakfast. It was 
their duty to take them out, one of the first things, in the morning. 
Q — Were the things continually moved backward and forward? A — 
They are taken out 
Q.-Do metal vessels leak? A.— Yes. The Defender always leaked 
a little; there was a small leak. 
Q.— Does the vessel sink an even amount as the weight progresses? 
Suppose you put in so many hundredweight of lead, and you sink her 
lin., would it require as many hundred the second inch, or would there 
be a less quantity of lead required? A,— More— in proportion, to in- 
crease the waterline. 
The Chairman— I suppose you can hardly get very far to-night, be- 
fore 6 o'clock, with another witness. 
Mr. Choate— No, I am ready to put Mr. Iselin on the stand, and then 
the other witnesses will all be here to-morrow morning. It the exam- 
ination is to take the course indicated by Mr. Askwith, I think we 
shall have no difficulty in putting in all our testimony to-morrow. 
That is, if he does not feel that he is here with any duty of cross- 
examination. 
The Chairman— We will take an adjournment until 10 o'clock to- 
morrow morning. 
At 5:50 P. M. adjourned to 10 o'clock A. M„ Saturday, Dec. 28, 1895 
Dec. $8.— Nathaniel G. Herreshoff, recalled and further examined 
by Mr. Choate: 
Q.— You spoke yesterday of a leak in the Defender, and left it very 
indefinite. Will you tell the committee what that amounted to? A.— 
It was only a slight le&k she always had; enough to occasion pumping 
once a day. It was done in the morning. I don't know the exact 
amount; probably twenty or thirty gallons. 
Q —Was that the most you ever knew? A.— That was a constant 
leak, and then when she was under sail she leaked a little more. The 
water gained while she was under sail in a fresh breeze. At any rate 
it was of no particular consequence. 
Q.— Take a boat like the Defender, could you, or do you thiuk any- 
one, looking at her on broadside, could tell whether she had a sliaht 
list or not? A.— No; I could not. 
Q.— And you are very familiar with such craft as she is? A.— Yes. 
Q- — To ascertain whether she had a slight list or not, what would 
you do? A.— The best place for observation would be from the bow 
or stern, or if ycu wanted to know exactly, by measurements of the 
height of the free board. 
Q — You mean observation on the bow or stern outside, or from in- 
side the vessel? A.— And looking at her from outside either on deck 
or better, from a small boat. 
Q.— Are you able to my from your knowledge of the construction of 
the boat how much a list of one degree would change the position of 
that water pipe in relation to the waterline? A.— Well, a difference of 
one degree would— heeling her one degree would immerse her side 
amidships something over 2in. 
Q.— How much weight would it take to do that on the side of the 
vessel, If you can tell or give any idea about it? A,— It would probably 
take a weight of about one-half or three-quarters of a ton. 
Q.— And as to the depression or elevation of the bobstay bolt— what 
would be the effect of a comparatively slight weight in the bow? A — 
She would probably move a little more with the same weight over the 
waterline at the bow or stern than at the broadside. Of course not so 
much in angle as if it was put on the side of the vessel. 
Q.— How would the wind on her rigging affect either her listing or 
the elevation or depression of her bow? A.— A strong breeze would 
make a perceptible difference 
Q. (by Mr. Whitney)— What was the size of thig hole, Mr. Herres- 
hoff, in general, where this ballast was that you looked down upon » 
A.— In her bilge — 
Q.— Yes? A. — (Continuing.) It is a scuttle, a floor that is movable, 
perhaps l^ft. wide— maybe 2ft.— and you look right down into an 
open space for some 10ft. or so. Of course, to see anything you would 
have to get your eyes accustomed to the light— dim light— but by 
standing there a moment you could see plainly the bilge construction 
and what ballast there was there— bilge water and anything. The 
space in the lower part is about wide enough for a man to get down. 
Q —What was the reason those pigs had to be cut? A.— Because 
this place was not large enough for them to lay down on that side. 
This place in the broadest part is about two-thirds the length of— rier- 
haps VAtt. 6 y 
Q.— You mean the width of it? A.— Yes; and the distance fore and 
aft between the floor plates was about 19in., so that it was impossible 
to lay the pigs flat. 
Q— They had to go in between beams? A. — Yes; in the floor space 
between the frames. 
Q — Go in crosswise of the boat? A.— Yes, sir; without cutting they 
could only be stood up on end. 
Q. (by Mr. Rives)— Did you say whether the tanks had been taken 
out of the boat? A. — Yes. 
Q.— What was the capacity of those tanks, about? A.— I think the 
water tank had a capacity of some 600 or 700 gallons. I don't remem- 
ber exactly, 
Q —That was the only tank in the boat? A. —There was a water 
tank and then there was a waste tank into which the water ran from 
basins and was pumped overboard. That was taken out. That was 
much smaller. And there was also a large wooden tank lined with 
zinc for the storage of ice. 
Q. — That was taken out, too ? A.— Yes. 
Q— Do you know how much a gallon of sea water weighs? A —I 
don't remember exactly the proportion; it is about 8>/.lbs.,I think, 
roughly; 64 a 10 lbs. to the cubic foot. 
Q (by Mr. Whitney)— Is there any place beside this hole where 
ballast could have been secreted without being exposed to ordinary 
observation ? A.— No. 
Q —Except in the hold? A.— The floor was all movable, so that 
anyone might examine the bilge for the entire length. There is a 
middle section of the floor with movable scuttle for the whole length. 
Q.— I don't suppose wou could tell by your eye, or ordinary obser- 
vation, could you, the exact amount of ballast there was in there- 
loose ballast? A.— No; not the exact amount, but I could tell the 
difference between two or three tons and ten very well. 
Q —How much nearer than that; can you tell the difference between 
three tons and six? A.— Yes; I think I could tell the difference 
batween three and four. 
Q —From your observation then, as you stated that morning, would 
you Bay there was not four? A. — Yes. 
Q.— What list would it give to the Defender if all her crew were on 
one side? A. — Ic would give her a list of about 3in. 
Q —How much do you think it would put her bow down if they were 
all forward? A —All on the fore deck, as far forward as they could 
stand, probably 3in. or a little more; between 3 and 4in.; possibly 
nearer 4. 
Q.— Does it give her a list when her boom is thrown over? A.— Oh, 
yes, decidedly. 
Q.— When she is not sailing? A.— Yea. 
Q. (by Mr. Choate)— What was the exact hour, as near as you can 
fix it, when you went on board the Defender, the morning of the race, 
the 7th? A.— I think it was in the neighborhood of 8 o'clock, although 
I have not any means of knowing the exact hour. 
Q —Well, you observed her, did you not, as you approached her* 
A.— Yes. 
Q —Did she appear to you to set any lower in the water than when 
she was measured the day before? A.— No ; I didn't notice any differ- 
encefat all. 
Q.— Would your intimacy with her enable you to see it if it were so? 
A.— Yes; any amount, certainly. That is, if the water was smooth 
enough. I know that at that time of the day many steamers are 
passing up and down, and besides there is always a swell coming 
around the Hook, which makes the water a little rough. 
Q —Did you observe, or could you tell, whether she had any list on 
at that time? A.— I did not observe any list and the wind was very 
light; there wasn't wind enough to list her any amount. Possibly a 
degree or something like that. 
Q —Where were you when Lord Dunraven came on board? A.— I 
was on deck. 
Q.— Did you go to the port side to see him, or who was with him? 
A — Yea; I remember his coming alongside to put Mr, Henderson on 
baard. 
After recess Nathaniel G. Herreshoff recalled 
Mr. Herreshoff— The question this morning I understood to'be 
what amount it would take to heel the Defender lin. The question 
was one degree. I stated three-quarters of a ton would be lin. One 
degree of inclination would probably take nearly two tons, a? a rough 
estimate, 
