Feb. 29, 1896. 
FOREST AND STREAM. 
IBS 
The Dunraven Inquiry. 
KB. ISEUN'S TESTIMONY, 
C. Oliver Iselin, being called as a witness in his own behalf, testi- 
fied as follows: 
Examined by Mr. Choate: . . „ 
<j. — You were one of the owners of the Defender, with Mr. Morgan 
and Mr. Vanderbilt, I believe? A. — Yes. 
Q —And by arrangement with them her entire management was left 
with you? A.— Entirely. , , , 
Q,— During the whole summer? A.— During the trial races and the 
Oup races; also the building of the boat. 
q. Before I go into your examination on other matters, I wish to 
know when you first heard that Lord Dunraven had made any com- 
plaint about the Defender? A.— It was on Oct. 25 1 heard that first; I 
read it in the paper. . 
Q.— October or September? A.— I read it in the paper in October. 
Q —That was after the report of the Cup committee to the yacht 
club? A.— Yes; the next day. 
q,_You had heard nothing on that subject from either the Cup 
committee or from Mr. Fish? A — Absolutely nothing. 
By Capt. Mahan: 
Q —That is with reference to this particular point we are speaking 
of ? A.— Yes. 
Mr. Choate— Yes. The complaint that Lord Dunraven made to Mr. 
Fish. 
By Mr. Choate: 
Q —How and when did you learn that there was to be a remeasure- 
ment on Sunday, Sept. 8? A.— I heard of it on Friday afternoon, Sept. 
6. I heard there was to be a re-marking— a marking. 
q —My question was when and how you first heard there was to be 
a remeasurement on Sunday? A.— I heard of that Sunday morning. 
G._ O/er at the Erie Basin? A.— At the Erie Basin. 
Q.— How came you at the Erie Basin that Sunday morning? A.— I 
wa» told on Friday, just after the measurement, by either Mr. Can- 
field or Mr. Rogers, I cannot remember which one, that the boat 
would be marked on Sunday morning. That is the reason I appeared 
tbere^^ ^ W ent from your home in New Rochelle down to Erie 
Basin to attend to the marking, did you? A.— No; I did not go from 
mv home. _ , 
q —From New York? A.— I went from Bay Ridge. I slept on the 
Neckan Saturday night. ' 
Q.— From wbom did you learn, after you got over there, that there 
was to be a remeasurement? A.— I cannot state who told me. 
Q.— And the marking you saw done as a result or an accompani- 
ment of the remeasurement? A.— I did not see the marking done. 
Q —You did not wait for that? A.— Yes, I waited, but I could not 
see it. I was sitting on the deck amidships. 
Q.— You knew it was beiDg done? A — I knew it was being done. 
o.— We will go back now to the beginning of the matter. You 
ordered the building of this boat through Mr. Herreshoff? A.— Yes. 
Q —Was anything arranged between you as to the general plan or 
theory uDon which she should be built, in respect to her load water- 
line? A.— Yes. 
q _in relation to the terms of the deed under which the Cup was 
held? A.— She was designed to conform with the deed, and we agreed 
that we had better make her 89Ct. wateriine, so as to have a foot mar- 
gin in case we wanted to use more ballast or wanted to make a differ- 
ence in the trim, in case the immersion was greater than we expected. 
We designed her to be 89ft. .„ - 
Q.—A8 appears she came within about 34. ft. of that? A. — Yes; when 
Q —How many trial races were there in the summer between her 
and the Vieilant? 
Mr. Iselin— What do you mean by "trial races"? 
Mr. Choate— I thought she raced with the Vigilant three times, did 
she not? " . 
Mr. Iselin— She raced a great many more than that. 
Q —Under the auspices of the New York Y. C? A.— Yes. 
Q —How many were there? , A.— I think eight races besides the trial 
races. 
Q.— Through how long a period prior to the end of August? A.— 
From some time in July she was racing. She raced in J uly. She had 
two races with the Vigilant in July, and then she went on a cruise 
with the New York Y. C, and was racing about ten days nearly 
every day from port to port, and also racing for the Citizens' Cup and 
O When were you notified by the club that she had been selected 
to race with the English yacht? A.— After the trial races with the 
Vieilant down the Bay. ,' , t • . 
O —After the last of those? A —After the last of them. 
Q — During all of these races prior to that time did she carry any 
ballast, and If any what? 
Mr. Iselin— Prior to what?" . 
Mr Choate— Prior to her being selected to race with the Valkyrie. 
A.— She carried absolutely none. Not lib. of ballast. Of loose 
ballast, I mean. 
Q._ What was there in her that weighed which could be taken out? 
A.— There was a water tank, bilge tank, large ice-box, stove, cooking 
utensils, cabin fixtures, partitions, bedding, all the linen, crockery, 
men's clothes, my apparel and my friends' apparel on board. That is 
about all. 
Q. -After the arrival of the Valkyrie, did you learn that she was 
practically stripped of all those things? A.— I did. 
Q —And did you have a conference with Mr. Herreshoff in conse- 
quence? A. — I did. 
q._ With what result? A.— The result was we decided to strip the 
Defender to be on equal terms with the Valkyrie. 
q,_ And for that purpose where was she taken? A.— She was not 
tatE&n for that special purpose anywhere. She happened to be at 
New Rochelle. 
Q.— When you so decided? A.— Yes. 
Q —How long was that before the Friday, Sept. 6 ? A.— That was on 
Tuesday and Wednesday and Thursday, just before Sept. 7. 
q._ Were you up at New Rochelle while she was being stripped of 
all those things? A. — I was. 
Q— Did you see that they wero all taken out of her? A.— I did. 
Q.— Did you provide for the weighing of those things? A.— I did. 
D. — What had been planned or arranged or advised between you and 
Mr. Herreshoff, to take the place of this weight so taken out, and 
what was the weight so taken out, as you were informed? A.— We 
did not expect there would be quite as much weight to come out of 
her as did, as appeared by weighing. So we decided to order two tons 
of lead to be sent from New York, to take the place of the cabin fix- 
tures and other things. . . 
Q —Thinking that would be enough? A. — Thinking that would 
about counterbalance what was taken out; and that lead was sent up 
to New Rochelle. 
Q —That was in the form of pigs of about lOOlbs. weight to the pig? 
A —Yes; there were two tons, forty-two pigs. 
Q — How did you procure that? A.— I told my friend, Mr. Thorne. 
He w«b one of my friends on the Defender, and sailed with me all sum- 
mer; and I asked him to order it for me in New York. 
Q.— Of any particular house? A.— I did not state to him any partic- 
ular house, no. I asked him to order the lead. 
q —Do you know from whom it was purchased? A.— Yes; I know 
now. Mayor, Lane & Co. 
q .— Is this the bill? A.— That is one of the receipted bills. 
q. — That is the bill for the forty-two pigs? A.— Forty-two pigs. 
q.— This is a bill made out to A. Iselin & Co.— that is your father's 
firm? A.— Yes. 
q.— "Forty-two pigs prime pig lead, 4,0J51b3., at 83.75, $151,69" 
Cartage added. "Ship to C Oliver Iselin, Yacht Defender, New Ro- 
chelle, via Steamer Mary Gordon. Ordered by N. B. Thorne." The 
date of the bill is Sept. 4? A —Yes. 
Q.— That weighed 4,045lbs. ? A.— Yes. 
o— When was this shifting done? A.— Taking these things out? 
That was done on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday before the Cup 
races. 
Q._What was the result of the weighing of what was taken out? A. 
—We took about 7,0001bs. out, ah told. 
Q —And you had only got 4,045 to substitute for It? What did you 
do on that? A.— I did not think I had substituted enough, so Mr. Her- 
reshoff and I decided we had better order another ton. 
Q.— Did you do so? A.— I did so, by wire. 
Q.— From the same houBe? A. — From the same house. I ordered it 
by wire. My wire was to Mr. Thorne. 
q — And on the same day did you purchase from the same house 
twenty-one pigs more? A.— I did. 
q,_ Where was that to be delivered? A,— That was to be delivereJ 
at the Erie Basin on Friday morning. 
0.— To await the Defender when she came down? A.— Yes. 
Mr. Choate-This bill is dated Sept. 5, 1895: "Sold to A. Iselin & Co., 
21 pigs prime pig lead, 2,015, at $3 75, $75.56; cartage and ferriage 
added; addressed to C. Oliver Iselin, Yacht Defender, Erie Basin 
Dock." 
Q.— That having been done, on the 4th and 5th apparently, the sec- 
ond purchase on the 5th. when did the Defender leave New Rochelle 
for the Erie Basin ? A.— She left on Friday morning, the 6th. 
q._ How did you come from your home in New Rochelle to the Erie 
Basin? A.— I came on the steam yacht Neckan. 
Q.— Chartered by you for that occasion? A.— Chartered by me to 
live on. Previous to that I had lived on the Defender during all the 
races. 
6.— Aad you came from New Rochelle on Friday morning down tft 
the ©to Basin? Ai-Yefc ' 
Q.— What time did youfeach the Erie Basin? A.— As nearly as I can 
say^it was about 12 o'clock. 
Q —Did you learn that the Valkyrie had then been already meas- 
ured? A,— No, she had not. The measurement, as I recollect it, was 
not completed. , . . ,, _ 
Q.— How soon after you arrived there did the measuring or the De- 
fended take place? A.— I shou'd say about one hour. 
'Q.— It began about that time? A. — It may be a little more. 
q _Do you remember anything passing between you and Mr. Leeds 
prior to that? A.— I remember his saying to me that the boat had a 
slight list to starboard. „ 
Q.— Was anything said about the boom being put over? A.— He 
said he thought the boom ought to be put over or something done. 
Q.— Did you give any direction in consequence of that, or was any- 
thing done that you remember? A.— No. I cannot recollect whether 
the boom was moved or not. I know the boat was put on a perfectly 
even keel when she was measured. 
Q.— She was on an even keel when she was measured ? A.— Yes. 
Q — How do you know that, otherwise than that it is usual or nec- 
essary? A.— Because I have a telltale on deck to tell me that. 
Q— You saw that telltale? A— I did. 
Q.— You were on deck all the time she was being measured? A.— I 
was on deck all the time she was being measured. 
Q.— At that time you observed by this telltale that she was on an 
even keel? A,— Not the time she was being measured. Just before. 
Because, when she was being measured, I had to sit in one position; 
but just before, I was looking at the telltale to see whether she was 
level or not. , 
q _ When you got there had the additional ton of lead, twenty-one 
pigs of lead, been already placed on board her? A.— No, they had 
not been. 
Q — Did they arrive after you got there? A.— No ; they were waiting 
there for me; they were on the dock on the truck. 
G.— You saw them placed on the Defender? A. — I did. 
Q.—Where were they placed? A.— On the cabin floor, about amid- 
ships, or a little aft of it. 
Q —Do you know of any other lead than that being put upon the 
yacht at that time, to the end of the races? A.— I do not. 
Q.— You procured none? A.— I procured none. 
Q,— You ordered none? A— I ordered none. 
Q.— How long did you stay by after the measuring of the,Defender 
had been completed? 
Mr. Iselin— Stay on the Defender? 
Mr. Choate— Stay there or in the Erie Basin? 
A.— I stayed on the Defender a very short time, because it was late 
and I wanted my lunch, and I went to the Neckan that was lying on 
the other side of her. I was sitting in the cabin on deck where I could 
see the Dafender while she was lying there, while I was eating my 
lunch. , , 
Q— By that time had the Valkyrie left the Basin? A.— At the time 
I had my lunch, yes. 
q _ Do you remember meeting Mr. Rogers and Mr. Canfield? A.— 
Yes; I do remember meeting them. 
Q —You remember their going over there? A.— Yes, I remember 
that perfectly. 
q _ What passed between you and them? A— They told me—. 
Mr. Choate— I refer to the marking of the vessel. 
A. (Continued)— They said at the time that Lord Dunraven wanted 
the waterlines marked, and asked me whether I would agree to that. 
I answered, as near as I can remember, it would be perfectly satisfac- 
tory to me, and I would be pleased to have it done. 
Q. — But the Valkyrie was not there at the time to be marked? A. — 
The Valkyrie had gone out. So they told me we would have to return 
on Sunday morning. 
Q.— Did you hear anything about the tides, or anything preventing 
the Valkyrie coming back that day? A.— Yes. I heard, not from 
them, but from the Valkyrie people, who 'asked to get out. They 
were inside of us. Some of our ropes interfered with their getting 
out, and they said they wanted to hurry out on account of the tide. I 
think it was Mr. Kersey who stated that to me, and suggested my 
going out with the Defender too. 
Q. — At this time state how you had officered and manned the De- 
fender. The same officers and crew that had been with her all summer ? 
A —Yes; the same officers and same crew, with the exception of one 
or two sailors. There were also sailmakers who had been with her all 
the summer. 
Q —Captain Haff had sailed her during all these trial races? A.— 
Yes. 
q' — And the same raa f es and quartermasters? A— Yes; the same 
no, there was a change in the quartermasters during the summer. 
One quartermaster was ill, and we only had two quartermastersthe 
first part of the season, and we afterwards had four; but two of the 
quartermasters were taken out of the crew. 
q _ For those places had you selected competent and experienced 
men, as you supposed ? A.— I selected the best men I could find in 
this country, to the best of my knowledge. 
Q — You left the Defender, that afternoon, I suppose? A.— Yes; I 
left her after the measurement. 
Q.— Did you make any further examination of her than you have 
already stated? Did you see the twenty-one pigs of lead after they 
were brought on board? A. — I did. 
Q.— You say they were on the cabin floor? A.— Yes. I also 
examined the hold. 
q —You examined the hold that day? A.— I did examine the hold, 
betore the measurement. 
Mr. Choate— I did not know that. 
Mr. Iselin— I also examined the hold at New Rochelle before she 
came to Erie Basin, after the stowing of the ballast. 
q _ Will you state what you found in the hold at New Rochelle and 
at the E ie Basin, before she was measured? A — I found the two 
tons in New Rochelle, and I examined it, because I wanted to see that 
it was properly stowed; and when she arrived at the Erie Basin I ex- 
amined the hold then, to see whether there was any water in her. 
There was a slight leakin the boat, and I was so very particular about 
•having every drop Of water taken out that I used to have men go 
down into her with buckets and a sponge to sponge every drop of 
water out, not only in the keel of the boat, but also in the lazarette 
There was a slight leak in the rudder post, and in the morning there 
were six to eight buckets of water that came out of the lazarette, I 
was most particular about having every drop of water out of the boat 
at all times. 
Q.— When you examined her before the measurement on Friday, 
what lead did you find in her? A.-I found two tons. 
Q.— And on the cabin floor the twenty-one pigs? A — On the cabin 
floor the twenty-one pigs. 
Q —Where did ycu spend that night, Friday? A.— I spent it on the 
Neckan, at the Horseshoe. 
Q — How far away from where the Defender was? A. — A good way 
off. It was rough that night going down. So much so that I went in 
close to the Government Docks, so as to avoid any rolling around at 
nieht. 
Q.— You were not near enough to hear or see anyth'ng going on in 
the Defender that night ? A —No, I was not. 
Q —How did you get aboard of her, and at what time on the 
morning of Saturday ? A.— I came aboard the Defender in my launch 
about 8 o'clock, as nearly as I can judge. 
Q._ Who went with you? A.— Mr. Thorne, Mr. Leeds, Mr. Herreshoff 
and Mr. Butler Duncan and Mr. Kane and no others. 
Q —Those gentlemen accompanied you on the race? A.— Yes. 
Q,— They came for that purpose? A. — Yes. They had been racing 
with me all summer. 
Q— It has been stated by Mr. Leeds as about half-past 8 Is that 
the way you recollect it? A —No, I think it was nearer 8 o'clock. 
Q. — You think it was earlier ; about 8 o'clock? A. — Yes; about 8. 
Q — How was the vessel lying at that time— I mean to say, the De- 
fender—as to motion; what was the condition of the water and the 
state of the wind? A.— The wind was light from the eastward, with a 
slight swell and a slight motion. 
Q— The vessel did not lie perfectly still in the water? A.— Not per- 
fectly still. 
Q.— Was there a motion both ways, do yon think? I mean to say, 
did she roll and pitch both? A.— No, I think there was a little roll to 
her. I did not notice any pitching. 
Q.— There was some motion? A.— Some slight motion, but the mo- 
tion was very slight indeed. 
Q.— You were familiar by this time with the Defender? A.— Yes. 
Q.— Did you observe that she lay any lower in the water than when 
she was measured in the Erie Basin the day before? A.— I did not. 
Q.— How long was it after you got on board that Lord Dunraven put 
Mr. Henderson on board? A —I should say it was very nearly one hour 
after— somewhere near 9 o'clock, I think, when he came. 
Q._During this hour what had you beeu doing? A. — As soon as I 
came on board I asked Capt. Haff how that twenty-one pigs had been 
stowed - I wanted to see it— and I went below with Mr. Herreshoff and 
Capt. Haff and examined the hold and saw that the lead had been 
properly stored. 
Q — As the weather was that morning, what were the best chances 
for your boat in the race— to be as light as she could be or as heavy? 
A.— As light, in my opinion, 
Q— That is what you thought? A. — Yes. 
Q.— You and Capt. Haff and Mr, Herreshoff made this examination 
to see whether the lead had been properly packed? A. — Yes. 
Q. — What did you find when the floor was taken up? A.— I looked 
down and asked Capt. Haff just where he had put the lead, and he 
pointed to where the lead had been put, and I could see that it was 
there. 
Q»-=-0Ql4d you gee^hat there W6§ ftny^nsiderable quantity? If 
there had been more than the three'tons would you have seen it ? A.— 
Yes, sir; if there had been any considerable quantity more. ■ 
Q— But there was none beyond that? A.— No, none that Icould see. 
There was none there. 
Q— What precautions did you take that morning as to water being 
out of the vessel? A.— I asked the carpenter, who was in the habit of 
doing that sort of thing for me. to measure the water in the hold, 
which he did in my presence, with a stick that was kept for that pur- 
pose. The stick was kept under the cabin floor. 
Q— Is that through a sort of hatchway? A.— There is a little hatch 
just at the bottom of the companionway as you go into the cabin. 
Q.— What was the result of the examination for water? A.— The 
carpenter reported that there was no water in it, and not only . 
reported, but I looked down and could see that there was no water 
in it. 
Q.— Did you have the bilge sponged out, as you say? A.— I did not 
have the bilge sponged out. 
Q.— There was no occasion for it? A.— Not the bilge; but the other 
part of the vessel I had sponged out. 
Q.— You know perfectly well what there was in the vessel that day, 
do you not, besides the officers and crew and yourself and your friends? 
A Yes. 
Q.— Was there anything except this three tons of lead ? A.— Nothing 
except the sails ; no ballast. 
Q.— Of course I do not mean the parts of the vessel; but none of 
those things that had been taken out at New Rochelle had been car- 
ried back into the vessel? A. — None. 
q _ What did you do about water? Were you going on that day's 
race without any water? A. — We had a milk can on board; one of 
those large milk cans. 
Q —One of those large 40qt. milk cans? A.— 40qt. can they called 
it; holding 40qts. 
Q,— That was all the water you had? A.— That was all the water. 
Q.— You sailed the race. Now, was there any communication at all 
to the Defender on her way up to Bay Ridge? Any communication 
made? 
Mr. Iselin— By the committee? 
Mr. Choate— By anybody, yes? 
A.— Yes; Borne one came aboard of her— not aboard of her, but 
came alongside of her, and handed me a horseshoe of flowers, just 
after I crossed the winning line. 
Q —But I mean was there any communication about the race or 
about the boat, or that she was to appear at any place for remeasure- 
ment, or anything of that sort? A. — None. 
Q — It was after you got up, was it, that you heard? You did not 
hear anything, did you? A. — On Saturday night I did not hear any- 
thing. I do not remember hearing anything about a remeasurement 
until Sunday morning. 
Q.—Where did you go on Saturday night? A— We lay off Bay Ridge 
close to the Defender. 
By Mr. Rives: 
Q.— There was a crowd of vessels ut> there at Bay Ridge that night, 
I suppose, was there not? A.— Yes; a great maDy vessels. 
By Mr. Choate: 
q —What time did you get up? Was it after dark or before? A.— 
«A.ffc©r d&rlr» 
q _it was too late to have the vessel remeasured that night, do you 
think? A.— In my opinion, yes. 
Q. — Did you ever know of any measurements by night, in the dark? 
Did you ever know of the measurement of any vessel or yacht? A. — 
No , I never heard of any. 
Q —You attended on the remeasurement on Sunday, did you? A. — 
Yes. 
Q — Were you on board the Defender then? A —Yes. 
Q — You made no special examination of her then, I suppose? A. — 
Yes, I did. 
Q.— What did you do? A— I had the floor taken up and examined 
the hold. 
q._ What did you Had? A.— I found practically three tons of lead 
there, as far as I could see, 
Q.— The same appearance as she presented just before the previous 
measurement? A. — Yes. 
Q.— And just before the race? A.— Yea. 
Q. —To your knowledge had anything been taken out of her or let 
out of her in any way from the time she started on the race until 
then? A.— Nothing to my knowledge. 
* Q— You are quite an experienced yachtsman. You had occasion to 
signal a protest on the second day's race, had you not? A, — Yes. 
Q— Bseause of foul? A,— Yes. 
Q — Do you know of anything that could have prevented Lord Dun- 
raven, on the previous day's race, on Saturday, signaling a protest 
about this subject that he complained of— the deeper immersion of 
the Defender? A.— No, I see do reason why he should not have 
done so. 
q._ Would it have been entirely within the rules? A.— Entirely. 
Q '._ I mean for him to signal his protest, and nevertheless sail the 
race on that day ? A.— Entirely. 
Q.— And it would have saved all this racket? A. — All. 
Q —Did you examine the marks after they were made on the Sun- 
day? 
Mr. Iselin— Did I examine what marks? 
Mr. Choate— The marks that were put there by Mr. Hyslop. 
A.— Mr. Herreshoff painted on the marks in the presence of Mr. 
Watson and Mr. Hyslop. 
Q.— You did not watch them to see about the correctness of that? 
A.— No; I could not watch them, because I was sitting amidships. 
By the Chairman: 
q,_ When did you first learn that a remeasurement had been called 
for by Lord Dunraven? A.— On Sunday morning. 
Q.— Sunday morning? A.— Yes, sir; the remeasurement. But the 
marking I heard of on Friday. 
Q.— And from whom? A.— On Sunday morning— I do not know 
from whom I heard it; but from the talk among my friends I under- 
stood that the boat was not only going to be marked, but remeasured. 
I may have been told so by Mr. Canfield. I do not remember. 
By Mr. Choate: 
q,_ Was Lord Dunraven brought there at the time of the remeas- 
urement? A. — Yes. 
Q. — Did you meet him personally and talk with him? A. — I did. 
Q.— Did he refer to any complaint? A.— He did not. 
Q.— Or find any fault? A.— He did not. 
Mr. Askwith— Those questions might have been asked Lord Dunra- 
ven when he was here. 
Mr. Choate— I know they might have been, but I did not think of it. 
Q._What did pass between you and Lord Dunraven ? A.— I went on 
deck, and Lord Dunraven at that time was sitting on the Valkyrie, 
nearly amidships, waiting for the remeasurement, and he came off of 
the Valkyrie with Mr, Kersey, and I was with Mr. Duncan. We shook 
hands and said good morning, and talked about its being a very warm 
day, and I think I asked him what time he got up to Bay Ridge the 
night before, and he told me pretty late and the Bridgeport later. He 
did not dine until 10 o'clock, or something like that. 
Q.— No complaint? A. — No complaint. 
q —No reference to any complaint or cause of complaint? A.— 
None whatsoever. 
By Mr. Rives: 
Q.— Did you have any conversation with him on Saturday morning 
at the Hook, when he came alongside your boat? A.— I had a few 
words with him, yes. 
Q — To what effect? What was it about? A.— I said good morning, 
and just as he was goiDg off I said, "Lord Dunraven, I have a sug- 
gestion to make to you. I would like to make you a little bet on the 
result of these races. " I said, "I would like to bet you my binnacle 
against yours." He waited a few minutes, and I think his answer 
was, as near as I can recollect it, "I think not." 
By Mr. Choate: 
Q.— As I understand you. up to Oct. 24 you remained in absolute 
ignorance that he had any cause of complaint ? A.— To Oct. 25. 
Q — You considered yourself charged with the full responsibility 
of anything that occurred on that vessel during the races? A.— Ab- 
solutely. 
Q.— I will ask you your judgment whether any such thing could 
have occurred as has been suggested by Lord Dunraven, either the 
lightening of the boat preliminary to the first measurement, the put- 
ting on board in any form of any weight to the extent of nine or ten 
tons, or to any amount, and the taking it out again before the second 
remeasurement, without your knowledge? A.— I cannot imagine that- 
such a thing could be ppssible. 
Q,— You say that, not only on your knowledge of this particular 
case, but from your general experience as a yachtsman? A, — Yes. 
Q — I do not know exactly how extensive your expert knowledge is, 
but could you tell from the motion and handling of the Defender 
whether there were ten or fourteen tons more or less of ballast or 
weight in her ? A. — Yes, I could tell at once. 
Q.— How could you tell that? A.— By the feeling of the boat, the 
way she moved. 
q _ Do you know from that that no such thing had occurred? A.— 
No such large amount of ballast as was necessary to immerse her 
4in. 
Q.— You had been on her on every previous race? A.— Every pre- 
vious race. 
Q.— And were perfectly familiar with her movement and conduct? 
A.— Perfectly. 
Q.— This boat has been laid up at New Rochelle since when? 
Since after the Cup raceB. 
By Mr. Whitney : 
Q.— The trial races, yon meajj? 4,— 
