Deo. 15, 1894.] 
FOREST AND STREAM. 
521 
A copy of the challenge was made and sent to ex-Com. James D. 
Smith, at his home in Stamford, and the original massage was looted 
up in the club safe, pending a meeting of the Oup committee on 
Thursday, at which were present Messrs. Smith, Oanfleld, Fish, 
Rogers, Iselin and Kortwright, only Mr. Tarns being absent. The com- 
mittee took no action pending the receipt of a letter from Lord Dun- 
raven In explanation of the challenge, which, it was known, had been 
mailed on Dec. 1, and thus might be expected on the Campania. The 
committee declined to make public the above challenge until the letter 
was received. The Campania came in on Saturdav, the mail being 
delivered in the afternoon, and the same evening a copy of the follow- 
ing letter was posted by Sec'y Oanfleld on the bulletin at the club 
house: 
Adare Manor, Adare. County Limerick, Dec. 1, 1894. 
1. Sir:— I have the honor to acknowledge (he receipt of your letter 
of the 35th inst, advising me of the appointment of your committee, 
and replying to my letter of Oct. 25, to Mr. Oddie, on the subject of a 
challenge for the America Cup. 
2. In regard to your remarks concerning the proviso in Paragraph 
3 of the challenge issued on my behalf in 1892. Without expressing 
any opinion, I must point out that the club issuing the challenge can 
alone have power to deal with such a matter, and that if it be referred 
to the Royal Yacht Squadron, it is quite impossible that their decision, 
whatever it may be, could be obtained in time to insure a match next 
year. It never occurred to me that any difficulty would arise, in the 
acceptance of a challenge identical with that of 1892. If your com- 
mittee are unable to accept such a challenge, it is quite certain that 
no challenge can be sent; but in the hope that I may not be thus dis- 
barred, I proceed to consider the other points mentioned in your 
letter. 
3. I am glad to find, as I expected, that on the question of measure- 
ments and weights, we are in complete accord. The supplementary 
conditions set out on page 30, of the report of the America Cup 
Committee to the New York Y. C, are not, 1 think, quite satisfactory, 
but the points involved are merely details which can easily be settled 
by further correspondence or after my arrival. 
4. Starting the windward and leeward races to windward, I consider 
most important. That they should be so started has always been ad- 
mitted. 
It is very advisable, in order that the object of the provision that 
the majority of the races sailed must be to windward, should not be 
frustrated by change of wind. 1 would point out that the first 
supplementary condition on page 30 of the report gives the Regatta 
Committee power to shift tne starting point, and that under this 
power a start could, in almost all cases, De made to windward, though 
perhaps with some considerable inconvenience. 1 think, also, that 
some attempt should be made to windward and leeward, and suggest 
the Insertion of some provision to the effect that if one of these races 
is started down wind and either vessel fetches back without a tack, 
that race shall be void. These questions cannot be decided off hand, 
and, provided the principle is recognized, I am quite content to leave 
details for future consideration. 
I would therefore accept your suggestion omitting the words 
"Sandy Hook or Scotland Lightship." It would then read, "that all 
races should be started to windward if possible." 
6. I note the confirmation of your cable message to the effect that 
the load waterline is required, and to that 1 agree. 
6. I greatly regret that the New York Y. C nas been unable to ac- 
cede to my request that the match should be sailed off Marblehead. 
One inconvenience attaching to the course of last year is patent in the 
difficulty, and perhaps the impossibility, of starting all the races in 
the way we are all agreed they should be started— namely, to wind- 
ward. The main consideration is to select courses as free as possible 
from obstruction. I need not again allude to the difficulties experi- 
enced last year in keeping a clear course; they are as well known to 
your committee as to me. 
As far as I know, no particular course or locality has been laid down 
for these international races, and I hope the New York Y. 0. may re- 
consider my request on its merits. I do not at all insist upon it, feel- 
ing, as expressed in my former letter, that those possessed of local 
knowledge, and who have to provide, as far as possible, a clear course, 
are the best judges. 
7. I am glad that your committeee will recommend that an original 
challenge may be withdrawn, and another substituted, subject to the 
conditions mentioned in your letter. 
8. With regard to the "one.gun" start, that method of starting is, I 
think, far preferable to the plan you propose, especially in a match. 
Two minutes may represent, owing to variations in the force of the 
wind occurring between the start and finish, anything from one hun- 
dred yards to half a mile, and your proposal consequently introduces 
an element of chance, which is avoided where both yachts start prac- 
tically together, as under our system. 
Should they not Btart together, the advantage gained is surely a 
legitimate one, arising from superiority or handiness of handling. 
But as your committee feels strongly that the ordinary custom of 
the club should be adhered to, I accept their proposal. 
9. As to the ten months' notice, I must request your committee to 
waive t his, to the extent of accepting a notice of eight instead of ten 
— the exact date of the first race to be settled later on. 
Sailing in October or even late in September makes it very late in 
the season for bringing a vessel home, and may inflict such great in- 
convenience to a challenger that I could not undertake to do it. 
10. In order to assist your committee in this respect, I may say that 
I shall challenge with a cutter 89ft. on load waterline, and that I have 
to-day requested the secretary of the Royal Yacht Squadron to for- 
ward a challenge for me, according to the terms of my challenge of 
1892. 
11. The only questions requiring a speedy answer are: First, will 
the committee accept a challenge identical with my challenge of 1892? 
12. Second, will they consent to shorten the terms of notice to the 
extent I have requested? As I shall have to build, fit the vessel out 
three times and cross the ocean, time is of great importance to me, 
and I should feel greatly obliged if you will cable me the decision of 
your committee on these two points. , 
13. With many thanks to your committee for their kind offers, I 
have the honor to remain yours very faithfully, Dunraven. 
A meeting of the Cup committee was convened at ex-Com. Smith's 
office on Monday, Dec. 10, at noon, all the members being present. The 
two documents were discussed at length, the meeting lasting until 4 
o'clock. As a result of the discussion, the following cable was sent to 
Lord Dunraven, supplemented by a letter by mail: 
"New York, Dec. 10, 1894. 
"Dunraven, London: 
"Can agree to no conditions as to holding the Cup. If the chal- 
lenging club will sign a receipt for the Cup, as provided in the deed of 
1887, we will accept the challenge. 
"We must adhere to the ten months' notice from Dec. 6, but will 
advance dates later if possible. 
"We think best to leave all other unsettled questions until your 
arrival. James D. Smith, Chairman." 
YACHT NEWS NOTES. 
The annual dinner of the Victoria Y. C, of Hamilton, Ontario, was 
held on Nov. 20, 143 members and guests taking part. Commodore, 
the Rev. C. Whitcombe, presid J d. After a very nautical menu had 
been disposed of, the night was finished with toasts and songs. The 
club is now in a very prosperous condition, with a large membership. 
Messrs. Gardner & Co. have placed a contract with Roach's ship- 
yard for a steel steam yacht of 140ft. length for an unknown owner. 
The design is radically different from the ordinary steam yacht, some- 
what of the type of naval vessels, with a plumb stem of very light 
curvature, a high side and a sheer that is quite straight, but as true 
and fair as in all of Mr. Gardner's designs. The after end is a novelty 
that is difficult to describe, but promises to look well, the lines taper- 
ing in with a clean sweep to a curved horntimber such as is found in 
the old elliptical sterns of so many American steam yachts. The 
effect, however, is much lighter and better. The engines will be triple 
compound, of special design. The firm have also two very beautiful 
designs for 35-footers of the Pyxie type, both of which wul be built ; 
one for Mr. George Bullock, of Oyster Bay. 
The Erie (Pa.) Y. C. has just bBen organized with the following 
officers: Com., Geo. P. Bliss; Vice-Corn., Geo. Berriam; Raar-Com., 
O. C. Weeks; Sec'y, E. R. Lynch; Treas., W. Reitzel; Meas., William 
Marks, Jr. ; Ass't Meas., Wm. Morrison; Surveyor, Dr. Harvey. The 
club will build a house and establish an anchorage east of the Water 
Works pier. The membership list is growing rapidly, and the club 
starts with every prospect of success. 
Isolene, steam yacht, J. H. Flagler, was burned and sunk last 
spring in Northport Harbor, the wreck being neglected ever since, 
pending an adjustment of the insurance; the engines and a nearly 
new boiler meanwhile being ruined by rust, The insurance companies 
have recently taken possession of the wreck and will sell it to be 
broken up. 
At Oakvllle, Out., Mr, Andrews, the builder, has a 42ft. l.w.l. cutter 
on the stocks for a Toronto yachtsman. 
The trouble between the Hempstead Harbor Y. C. and its neigh- 
bors, Mrs. and Miss McKenzie, has been again brought, before the 
courts, a committee of the club appealing to the authorities of Long 
Island City for protection from the younger woman, who, it is 
claimed, is in the habit of firing at members as they pass to and from 
the club house at Glen Cove. 
The order for a steel steam yae'at for a New York owner, from de- 
signs by H. J. Gielow, has been placed with the Pusey &, Jones Co., 
of Wilmington. The yacht will be" 140ft. over all, 115ft. '1. w.l., 17ft. 
beam and 6ft. 3in. draft, with four watertight bulkheads and schooner 
rig. The engines will be triple expansion, four cylinders with a 
watertube boiler, the guaranteed speed being 20 miles under forced 
draft and 18 miles under natural draft. 
The present season has been a prosperous one with the Corinthian, 
Y. C. of Atlantic City. During the year $325 has been paid on the 
house debt, leaving but $100, the sole indebtedness of the club. The 
dues are but $2 per year, and the club is active in the promotion of 
racing. The annual meeting was held on Nov. 14, being very well 
attended. The following officers were elected: Com., W. W. Hollings- 
worth, M D.; Vice-Corn., Fred P. Currie; Fleet Captain, LemWootton; 
Fleet Surgeon, Talbot Reed, M.D.; Meas, John T.Andrews; Sec'y, 
Chester Adams; Treas., Leonard Alger; Trustees— E. S. Reed, Geo. S. 
Gandy, Harry B. Leeds, Fred P. Currie, David Barrett; Regatta Com- 
rrittee— David C. Andrews, chairman; Geo. Gale, Leonard Alger, Ches- 
ter Adams, John T. Andrews: Lines, Models and Exhibits Committee— 
C. Sumner Reed, chairman ; Geo. Gale, Wra. Maupay, Jr. ; House Com- 
mittee— D. C Andrews, chairman; Wm. H. Edwards, Wm, Pfaff ; Lec- 
tures and Entertainments Committee— Wm. S. Westcott, chairman; 
John E. Mehrer, Jr., Wm. Cochran. The new commodore, Dr. Hol- 
lingsworth, has served the club very faithfully as secretary, and has 
done much toward its present prosperity. 
Capt. Howard Patterson has reopened his institution, the New York 
Nautical College, at 130 Water street, with regular courses of instruc- 
tion for yachtsmen, members of the Naval Reserve, yacht sailing 
masters, merchant captains and mates, and others interested in navi- 
gation. Capt. Patterson has had as pupils many of the foremost New 
York yachtsmen. 
New York C. C. 
The past year has been one of trial and tribulation for the New 
York O. C. the damage to its house and fleet having crippled it finan- 
cially in spite of the loyal support of its members, and further plac- 
ing it at a serious disadvantage as regards this season's work afloat. 
What is specially discouraging is the convincing proof afforded by the 
first disaster, and another less serious in its results that a floating 
house is not possible on Gravesend Bay. The officers of the club have 
worked most indefatigably all this season, and are even now busy with 
new plans to keep the club together and to preserve that e»prit du 
corps which has been its mainstay in all of its troubles, and have just 
issued the following notice: 
PASTE THIS IN YOUR HAT. 
It has been thought best to keep the members of the N. Y. C. C. 
together this winter for the purpose of getting at some practical solu- 
tion of the problem of a shore house. To facilitate this your com- 
mittee have arranged to meet at lunch every Thursday at 12:30 P. M. 
pt Powers's restaurant, 52 Cedar street, a comfortable, quiet and rea- 
sonable place. You are expected to show up as often as possible. No 
treating, and every man for himself. 
MARMALADE LODGE AND FENCING ROOM DINNERS REVIVED. 
Years ago the N. Y. C. C. had a lodge at Stephens's boat house on 
Staten Island. The old members are never tired of talking and expati- 
ating on the good times held there, and the undersigned, in the hope 
of reviving these good times and bringing the canoeists of this vicinity 
together, have arranged to have the club house opened and warmed 
every Sunday. Hot coffee, etc.. will be served, and the time spent in 
rigging, yarning and a general discussion of plans and schemes relat- 
ing to a proposed shore house for the club. The boat house is in the 
Atlantic Yacht Club basin, foot of Fifty-fifth street, South Brooklyn, 
reached via Thirty-ninth street ferry and Second avenue trolley, or' by 
Bridge and Fifth avenue "L" to Fifty-second street. 
It is proposed later to give dinners and have practical talks on mat- 
ters which will interest all canoeists. We ask you to heartily co-operate 
with us. Bring your pipe, have some old clothes in your locker and 
get down there as often as possible. Buttonhole your friends among 
the canoemen. Bring them or tell them to come down. All canoeists 
are welcome; the more the merrier. Yours sincerely. Some op Us. 
A Panacea. 
Editor Forest and Stream; 
Am I glad that I am not on the A, C. A. regatta committee? Well, 
rather I I only hope that the man who proposed handicapping, an in- 
animate bit of matter, is on the committee. What a nervous strain it 
will be on the poor handicapped canoe to strive and keep ahead of the 
scratch boats, and how tired the scratch canoes will be endeavoring to 
cut down huge slices of handicap. How nicely it could all have been 
settled by classifying the men according to their known merits. 
What possible basis is there for handicapping an outfit, when any 
really good boat, one that any one can own, when lines are so well 
known as they are to-day, can be sailed to the utmost advantage by a 
novice? Does any well-informed person doubt that a Paul Butler in 
an indifferent canoe can tie clove hitches around me in the best canoe 
that floats three times in every mile and then be out of sight at the 
finish? I think not. No regatta committee that ever served a term 
can handicap a fleet with good, bad and indifferent boats and sailors 
throughout its number. 
Handicapping the knockabout class of small yachts at Marblehead 
has been indulged in, but no one in his right mind claims it to have been 
really satisfactory. Starting all together and calculating the handi- 
cap at the end leaves things in just as bad a way, as the bad sailors 
hamper the good ones. 
Under the class system such as I have advocated in these columns 
before, it would be a case of Greek and Greek and fine racing would 
result. A lower class man would have an ambition to shine in a 
higher class and would work to that end. Under a handicap system 
no true sportsman would be entirely satisfied with beating a man 
who had given him a start to begin with, or who, having beaten him, 
must lose the race because his "crack" has a gift of time or distance. 
If, however, he beats men of his own class and thus gains admission 
to the company of better men, he will or should be proud of the dis- 
tinction. 
The feeling that if one cannot beat another fairly and squarely he 
can steal another's laurels by virtue of a haudicap must ever be a 
mean one. If I win from a man by real merit I can slap my breast 
and proudly say, "I beat him " But no self-respecting canoeist 
(above all others) can say with^pride, "He beat me, but I took the 
prize because he gave me something to help me out of the hole from 
which I could not climt> without assistance." Away with such 
miserable makeshifts to take the place of real merit and rob it of its 
glory. 
Has canoeing degenerated that men cannot race without such a 
towline? Not much. Let them handicap for a year and thus kill 
such a nocuous practice. Rather toll the death knell of racing than 
have it supported a living corpse on tottering legs. Ilex. 
Boston, Deo. 6. 
Editor Forest and Stream: 
The following suggestions are offered for what they may be worth, 
in hopes that others may be induced to criticise them and thus bring 
out something that may aid the committee: 
As to limiting sail area or even making it the bwis for handicap- 
ping, I believe it to be not only unfair but wholly wrong. To bring 
the matter home, take two boats in my own club. One of them is 
purely a racer, while the other is a compromise, and a very seaworthy, 
powerful canoe, there being about 601b3. difference in weight. They 
have been repeatedly sailed together and all results carefully noted. 
With the same amount of canvas, cut and rigged exactly the same, 
the lighter canoe invariably wins; but by increasing the sail area of 
the heavier canoe by 25ft., the tables are completely turned. In heavy 
weather we have found that, while it was utterly impossible to do 
anything with the lighter canoe with 100ft. of canvas, the other would 
easily carry 165i!t. The canoes have each several sets of sails, and are 
exactly alike. 
Now, would it be at all fair to use sail area as the basis for handi- 
capping these two canoes? Would it not effeetually bar the heavier 
canoe except in unusually heavy weather? You might take a canoe 
as a start, weigh it, and say this canoe of such a weight shall be 
allowed so much canvas; all others shall be allowed to add one square 
foot of canvas for each pound in excess, and must reduce by one 
square foot for each pound less. 
I have been trying to think up some scheme to revive the entry list 
in our home races, but I must confess It is yet beyond me. I think the 
definition of a cruiser is wrong, and that by letting In some of the 
other cano63 we might make the race for cruisers a very interesting 
one and fill a large entry list. The days of a cruiser who sleeps in his 
canoe have gone, and a 6ft. well, 5ft. in the clear, is hard to find in a 
modern sailing canoe. 
The old style cruisers were very nice to use iu perfectly smooth 
water, bat when it gets even a little bit rough you must go ashore or 
else get everything you own soaking wet and be uncomfortable for 
the balance of the cruise. 
My idea of a cruiser is a canoe with plenty of dry stowage, and one 
that can stay at sea when it is rough. Not one with an open cockpit 
and that must lay up on the slightest indication of rough water. Why 
not make a race obliging each canoe to carry a certain weight or 
bulk ? Make each man strike his tent, pack it into his canoe together 
with a certain weight of sand bags, sail to windward around a stake- 
boat and return, the tents to be struck at the gun signal and the time 
to include all preparation. The taking of the tents aboard would," I 
think, effectually bar the canoes that have no cockpits. Of course 
tent poles must go with the tents, and the tents must be fit to use in 
cruising. 
I have figured out an idea for a time handicap, but I am afraid it 
would be rather complicated and saddle considerable work on the 
regatta committee. I should suggest as follows: Let the first race 
called be the unlimited. All who do not enter this race must start as 
scratch men in the first race they do enter. Let the time of each man 
be taken and used as the basis for figuring the handicap. The penalty 
for withdrawal or disablement in any race shall be to place such canoe 
at scratch in the next race entered. Let the difference in time in each 
race between the first canoe to finish and each other be divided by 2 
and deducted from the times in the next race. For instance, A, B, C 
and D start in the first race and finish as follows: A, 45m.; B, 48m.; 
C, 50m.; D, 58m. 
SECOND RACE. 
Actual. Corrected. 
A 47 less 0 47 
B 50 less V/i 48!^ 
C 51 less 41% 
D 56 less 6}| 49j,g 
THIRD RACE. 
A , 49 less 0 49 
B 52 less \\i .50^ 
C 51 less 2 49 
D 53 less 4% 48^ 
In this way, by allowing a canoe half her difference in each race, I 
think things might be equalized to some extent. I do not believe it 
would be policy to allow a canoe all her difference, as it would tend to 
put a premium on jockeying for a certain race. I would also advise 
that no canoe be allowed more than a certain amount of time in any 
race. X 
CANOE NEWS NOTES. 
The camp-fire of the British Canoe Association was announced for 
Dec. 8 at Newcastle-on-Tyne, the dinner, at 6 P. M , being given by the 
Northern C O, followed by a "sing-song." The business meeting, to 
determine the site of the 1895 meet, takes place at 3 P. M. 
The annual meeting and dinner of the Puritan C. C. of Boston will 
be held at Young's Hotel, Boston, on Saturday, Jan. 5. 
New York Schuetzen Corps. 
New York, Dec. 7.— The New York Schuetzen Corps, Capt. Henry 
Offerman, held its second bi-monthly gallery practice and team shoot 
on the Zettler Bros, ranges this evening. There was a large gathering 
of the members present and much interest developed in the competi- 
tion. In the team matches Capt. Offerman's team was again unfor- 
tunate in its efforts to outshoot Capt. Tholke's team. The latter team 
won both matches with ease Scores: 
First Match. 
Tholke, Captain 225 
Feigel 237 
Grosch 234 
Bonn 238 
Facompre 231 
Kuhlman 208 
Kumsieck 201 
Decker 204 
Strate 233 
J Klee 230 
Hermann 220 
Bunder void... 226 
Schmidt 239 
Wehrenberg ..213—3348 
Tholke, Captain 225 
Feigel 237 
Christian 241 
Grosch 237 
Strate 242 
Kuhlman 213 
Facompre 237 
Hermann 227 
Berle 214 
Bernstein 223 
Klee 202 
Decker 198 
Mann 174 
Nordbruck 209- 
Offerman, Captain 228 
Zettler 231 
Christian 236 
Bradley 225 
Bores tein.. 211 
Berle 223 
Galle 222 
Nordbrock 204 
Mann 178 
Hoops 193 
C Offerman 226 
H Meyer 218 
Lohden 222 
Gobber 209 
Giebelhaus 223—3249 
Second Match. 
3084 
Offerman, Captain 197 
Zettler 233 
Bonn 238 
J Schmidt 237 
Bradley 224 
Wehrenberg. 217 
H Meyn 200 
Krumsieck ,..212 
C F Offerman 236 
Giebelhaus 205 
Gobber 207 
Hoops., 141 
Gahe 209 
Bindewald 211-2967 
Cincinnati Rifles. 
Cincinnati O , Dec. 2.— The Cincinnati Rifle Association's held its 
regular shoot to-day. Conditions: 200yds., off-hand, at the standard 
target: 
Gindele 8 9 9 10 10 7 9 6 8 10-86 
89897 10 878 9-85 
.5 9 10 7 10 8 7 9 6 9—80 
9779969 10 7 7—80 
Louis 5 6 19 9 7 7 6 10 6 10—76 
977 10 97886 10—81 
699 10 89667 9—79 
10 9559786 10 7—76 
Wellinger „ ...7 10 9 9 7 8 7 7 10 10-84 
6 10 7 9 10 7 10 10 6 9—84 
9 10 76879 10 9 9—84 
877 10 98985 7-:8 
See , 9 10 7876897 6 -77 
77978874 10 8-75 
8 10 68875 7 4 6-69 
788567768 6— £8 
Paine 7 345 10 2475 P-J-5 
3 4 4 10 6 4 10 3 4 7- 95 
345653377 6-49 
131477655 4-43 
Weinheimer 4978596 10 7 7— '2 
« 8 6 8 7 fi 4 9 8 8-72 
5 6 8 7 7 6 10 8 7 7- 71 
6 8 8 8 5 4 7 8 6 10- 70 
Trounstein 1 10 2 5 5 4 7 9 3 5— i H 
365367255 8- 60 
5456544465 49 
498664723 3-47 
Druhe 977996899 8-81 
10 8 6 8 10 6 6 8 8 6 79 
89 10 659698 7-77 
9 10 8 6 10 6 10 6 5 7—77 
Smith 4957656 10 10 5—67 
774893948 4-63 
10 4- 6 786834 4-60 
The Iattle Hatchets. 
Alton, 111 , Dec. 1. — Kindly note the organization of the Little 
Hatchet Rifle Club, of Howard, Ohio. Mr. W. M. Reese, of Cleveland, 
C. L ; E. P. Critchfleld, Howard, O., 1st Asst. C. L.; H. R. Wills, 
Alton, 111 , 2d Asst. O. L. The club goes into practice at once, but in 
its present scattered condition the work will have to be done in various 
parts of the country; but all the same it is the intention of each and 
every one to attain a high standard in rifle shooting, and as a club to 
be able to hold iis own against all comers next season of out door 
shooting. Mr. Critchfleld is now famous in his own State as a crack 
shot. The organization will be maintained at Howard, O., the head- 
quarters heretofore of all who belong to the club lately formed, for 
both rifle practice and wing shooting. H. R. Wills. 
Greenville Rifle Club. 
Greenville, N. J., Dec. 7.— Eighteen members of the Greenville 
Rifle Club participated in the weekly competition this evening for 
class prizes. Thq present series will end next week. The compe- 
tition has been close and a matter of much interest to the competing 
members. The club will elect a new board of officers on Dpc. 10. In 
the competition this evening the following appended scores ve'e 
made: First Class— M. Dorrler 246. Geo. Purkess 244, J. Boag 2' 9 (i 
W. Plaisted238, W. 0. Collins 244, C. Scheeline237, C. Boag 235. S> cmd 
Class— Agneau 232, Chavant 241. Chase 223, Charlock 230, Spam 223, 
Gotthardt 22g, Fagen 233. Third Class— Hill 216, Graef 226. Renker 
232, E. Wuestner, Sr., 200. 
