JncE 13, 1897.] 
FOREST AND STREAM. 
478 
Extract from the programme for tbe first annual tourna- 
ment of the Trap-Shooter's League of Indiana at Kokomo, 
that State, June 8-9: "Parker Gun Handicap. * * * The 
highest score which one with an allowance msLj make is 47 
unless a scratch man should break more, in which event bis 
score shall be the highest possible for tbe other class." Ex- 
tract from FOKEST 'and Stream, June 20, 1896, page .504, 
under "Handicaps and Highest Possibles": "In 50-target 
events make the highest possible score 47 (or 48) beyond 
which no targets can be scored * * * unless a scratch 
man shall break more than 47 (or 48) in a 50-target race * * 
* * in such cases that scratch man's score to be the highest 
possible." "When we wrote the above we never intended to 
penalize any man who might break more than 47 (or 48) out 
of his first 50 targets; but on looking over the item we saw 
thatwehad made no provision fora man, not ascratch man, 
who might do so. We, therefore, in writing on the same sub- 
ject in Forest and Stream of Oct. 3, 1896, t hree months later, 
said: "In all handicap events fix a highest possible score, 
making allowance for the loss of a few targets on the part of 
the scratch man or men in all events where the number of 
targets to be shot at reaches 50 or 100 (sav 48 as highest possi- 
ble in a 50-target handicap or 94 in a 10t)-target race). The 
number chosen for the highest possible cannot be exceeded 
unless some shooter shall break more than that number out 
of his first 50 or first 100, as the ease may be; that is, without 
his allowance. In the event of any shooter exceeding the 
highest possible, as above, that shooter's score shall be the 
highest possible, and all shooters tying that score, with or 
without their allowance, shall be entitled to a portion of first 
money." In the same article we drew the shooter's attention 
to the fact that such a system of handicapping could only be 
brought into play where the Rose system or "high guns" was 
used. The old "50. 30 and 20" wouldn't do here at all. In 
the "Parker Gun Handicap" the purse will be divided into 
ten equal parts, the gun going to the high man, ties for first 
place shooting off for the gun under the same conditions as 
in the original race. 
The citizens of Sherbrooke, Can., are to celebrate the 
Diamond Jubilee on Dominion Day, July 1, so the Sher- 
brooke Gun Club has gotten out a programme to attract , 
shooters to its grounds on that date. The management has 
decided to adopt the Sergeant system of three traps, the 
system devised by W.-'G. Sergeant, of Joplin, Mo., which has 
been so often described in these columns. A note in the pro- 
gramme states that "as far as possible shooters using black, 
powder will shoot together." All purses will be divided 
under the Rose system, and the programme of events and 
varied styles of snooting called for ought to please all who 
complain of the monotony of target shooting. The shooting 
is open to all, and will take place rain or shine. We have 
to thank the Sherbrooke Gun Club for the following very 
courteous mention of ourselves: "Forest AND Stream, the 
sportsman's weekly, devotes a large amount of space to 
trap-.shooting, and subjects practical and theoretical con- 
nected therewith. Subscription $4 a year and worth it," 
(N. B.— The italics are not ours.) 
There will be no contest between Ferd Van Dyke and W. 
H, Wolstencroft for the Austin expert rules trophy, and the 
reason is not far to seek. E'erd Van Dyke never challenged 
Wolstencroft, and did not know anything about a challenge 
having been issued in his name by Winston until the morn- 
ing of Monday, May 31, when he was attending the New 
Haven shoot. As soon as he heard of it. Van Dyke said 
such a match was an impossibility under the circumstances, 
and added that Winston had never said a word to him about 
it, and that he had never authorized any such challenge. 
Van Dyke left New York city on Thursday last, June 3, for 
Monroe, La,, to attend the Interstate Association's tourna- 
ment in that city, June 9-10. He will not be back until 
about June 14. Under the terms of the cup, we suppose it 
now becomes Wolstencrof t's property, as he has' defended 
his title to the cup for a period of six months. 
The race for the Recreation cup is fast narrowing down to 
two men. The cup represents the amateur championship of 
New Jersey and Greater New York, and has now been won 
twice by two men, F. Sinnock, of the Forester Gun Club, of 
Newark, and J. S. S. Remsen, ot the Brooklyn, N. Y., Gun 
Club. Sinnock won it on June 2 with a score of 95 out of 
100; he used a Parker gun and Du Pont Smokeless. His 
other win was made in February, and, curiously enough, on 
that occasion he was shooting a Winchester and W-A pow- 
der. Remsen always uses a Scott and Schultze. Remsen 
was tied for second place on June 3 with Edwards, both 
scoring 93; Van Dyke, who was not eligible to shoot for the 
cup, broke 94. 
The Winchester Repeating Arms Co. have put their new 
model 1897 repeating shotgun on the market. There are sev- 
eral improvements in this model, among them a button on 
the right-hand side of the receiver; pressure on this button 
enables a shooter to open the gun without uncocking the 
hammer. Another feature is the double extractor, while the 
rigidity of the slide handle is also an improvement. The 
stock is also longer, and slightly differently shaped; in fact, 
the gun is an improvement over the model '93. Van Dyke 
shot one of these oirds for the first time at Hackensack, N. 
J., on June 2. His work with it showed that he, at any rate, 
could nse it as satisfactorily as his old gun. 
W. F. Parker, of the firm of Parker Bros., Meriden. Conn., 
was one of the few shooters present at the second day's shoot 
of the Bergen County Gun Club's first anniversary tourna- 
ment at Hackensack, N. J., June 3. When Mr. Parker first 
dawned upon us in this section as a trap-shooter, he was 
easy; that was last fall at the Endeavor Gun Club's tourna- 
ment at Marion, N. J. Since then we have met him in 
several places and have become more respectful. At New 
Haven, Conn., on Decoration Day he shot well up to the 
front, but on June 3 he was hunting the top holes all the 
time, finishing with 118 out of 130 shot at. 
Paul North has another grievance, A few weeks ago he 
was in St. Louis and needed a shave; he bought one, and was 
reclining gracefully in the barber's chair, his chin all covered 
with the generous lather, when he felt a tap on the shoulder 
and heard a smooth voice utter the name of "Mr. Isaacs." 
Paul turned around and faced his interlocutor, whose 
features at once became suffused with crimson when he saw 
his mistake. "Oxcuse me, please; I did think you weremein 
friend, Mr. Isaacs!" And the grievance is that the barber 
peremptorily refused to cut Paul's throat and end his miser- 
able existence. 
The Bison Gun Club, of Buffalo, N. Y., announces that it 
will hold an all-day shoot on Monday, July 15. Five per cent, 
of all the purses will be deducted to form a fund for average 
tnoney.the fund to be divided into three moneys and to goto 
the three highest averages made shooting through the 
whole programme." This will not seem an easy feat when 
it is understood that the programme calls for fifteen events, 
with a total of 265 targets for a single day's shoot. All tar- 
gets will be thrown from a magautrap and will be charged 
for at the rate of 1 cent each. 
Owing to Decoration Day falling on a Monday and our 
going to press the following day much v<-luable news mat- 
ter had to go over, among the items being a review of the 
programme for Pennsylvania's State shoot. Judging from 
the programme, outsiders, as- well as residents of the State 
will be well looked after by the Oil City boys. 
There will be a great gathering at Auburn, N. Y., this 
week. The New York State shoots are always very popular 
affairs, and this year's gathering gives promise of keeping up 
the repiitation made by its predecessors. So far we have not 
heard of any claimants for next year's shoot. 
The programme for the thirteenth annual tournament of 
the Sportsmen's Association of the Northwest, June 16-19, 
under the au.spices of the Anaconda, Mont,, Gun Club has 
been received. This tournament is opeh only to residents of 
the States of Oregon. Washington, Idaho, Montana and Bri- 
tish Columbia. Professional shooters and manufacturers' 
agents will be barred from this tournament. Tbe programme 
also contains this old familiar friend: "Any person found 
guilty of dropping for place will have their entrance refunded 
less price of birds, and be barred from the < ntire tourna- 
ment." Under the Rose system, this sentence would be un- 
necessary. 
Among the New York contingent at the Auburn shoot this 
week will be Justus von Lengerke and Gus Greiff, jointly 
representing the American E. C. & Schultze Powder Com- 
pany, Limited, and Francotte guns; Ed. Taylor of the Laflin 
& Rand Powder Company, and M. Herrington, both of them 
interested in that firm's W-A powder; J. G. Lindsey and L, 
H. Schortemeier. The New Utrecht Gun Club will of course 
be represented in the Dean Richmond cup race on the last 
day. 
The programme for the New Haven. Conn., Gua Club's 
tournament, July 14-15, under the au,spices of the Interstate 
Association, is ready for mailine. A copy can be obtained 
by applying either to Elmer E. Shaner, manager of the Asso- 
ciation,'l22 Diamond market, Pittsburg, Pa., or to G. W. 
Hazel, secretary of the New Haven Gun Club, 11 Church 
street, New Haven, Conn, The club adds ^100 a day to the 
purses. 
Charlie Grimm, of Clear Lake,-Ia., sends us the following 
notice of a shoot to be held at Clear Lake, June 20-23: "First 
anunal Indian Wolf shoot; ^50Q added money; three days 
targets, one dav live birds; under the management of C. M. 
Grimm." Mr. Grimm also states that he will supply pro- 
grammes and further details on application. Much medi- 
cine should be made at that shoot, and the tournament 
ought to prove a great success. 
In a letter which we have just received from Neaf Apgar, 
dated June 5, he writes. "Weshoot every afternoon and fish 
the balance of the time. I want j ou to come up and see me, 
and have a fi.sh." Neaf is now a member of the Boniface 
tribe, being proprietor of the Pine Point Club Hotel, Orange 
Lake, Newburg, N. Y. His location is well-chosen, as Orange 
Lake is a very popular resort, both summer and winter. 
Oh Friday, May 28, the intercollegiate shoot resulted as fol- 
lows: Y'ale 116,. Harvard 113, Princeton 110, Columbia 106, 
U. P. 104. The conditions were five-men teams, 30 targets 
per man. Brewer, of Princeton, made 29 (the high score), 
Brown, the captain of Yale, being second with 28. The Yale 
team has been xmder the tuition of Geo. S. McAlpin, of New 
York city. . 
The winner of the New Utrecht Gun Club's Holiday Cup 
on Decoration Day was Danny Lohmann, a boy about four- 
teen years old. Danny is a "Class C man," and was allowed 
under the system of handicapping in use at this club 2 exti'a 
birds to shoot at (if he needed them), but Danny had no use 
for the "two extra"; he plunked out his 10 straight and took 
the cup, His handicap distance was 28yds. 
The difficulties experienced by the trap-shooters of New 
Jersey in straightening out the muddle into which they have 
gotten themselves by trying to revive a defunct organization, 
could have been avoided easily if a brand new association, 
with a history of its own, had been started. History is made 
quite cheaply, and that furnished by the old association is 
hardly of the quality that inspires either confidence or re- 
spect. 
The Norwalk, Conn,, Shooting Association held its third 
annual meeting on May 24, electing the following officers for 
1897-98: President, T. W. Latham; Vice-Pre.sident, H. A. 
Gallup; Treasurer, C. F. Stewart; Captain, Frank Reiley. 
The Board of Directors consists of the above-named officials 
and Frank Lamkin and George Titus. The secretary seems 
to have left out his own name, perhaps through modesty. 
Another view of the Rose system: "The Rose system was 
tried in several events. For an ordinary shooter it is all 
right, but it is not in favor with those who can shoot some." 
The above is an extract from a report of the Peoria tourna- 
ment, which appears in one of our cotemporaries. "Those 
who can shoot some" — there's the rub, 
The Endeavor Gun Club, of Jersey City, N. J., killed two 
birds with one stone on Saturday last, June 5, by disposing 
of the Dunellen (N. J.) Gun Club and the Bergen County 
Gun Club -at "one sitting." The team scores (9 men to a 
team, 25 targets per man) were: Endeavor 181, Bergen 
County 143, Dunellen 185. 
The Ottumwa, la., Gun Club will hold an all-day target 
shoot on its grounds on Monday, July 5. All purses divided 
into three moneys if under twelve entries; over twelve en- 
tries, four moneys. Bluerocks will be thrown from a magau- 
trap at 1>2 cents each. 
The State Sportsmen's Association of North Dakota will 
hold its tournament June 16-17, at Far^o. All purses will 
be divided by the Rose system. There will be $25 per day as 
added money, targets being thrown at 3 cents each. A 
magautrap will be used in place of five expert traps. 
The first annual amateur tournament of the Spirit Lake, 
la., Gun Club will be held July 17-19. This tournament is 
for amateurs only, and a programme has been prepared that 
should please the average amateur. 
Elmer Shaner was in the cit y on Friday last, Jime 4, on his 
way to Monroe, La. He left by the 5 P. M. train the same 
evening with LT, M, C. Thomas as his fellow-traveler. 
June 7. Edward Banks. 
Mr. Gates and the Rose System. 
Before proceeding to review the arguments set forth by 
Mr. Gates, of Utica, N. Y., in his letter on the Rose system 
published in our issue of June 5, it would be only fair to Mr. 
Gates to explain that that letter appeared in such issue con- 
trary to his wishes. Not that he did not want to go on 
record as against the system; he only wished us to keep the 
letter until after the New York State shoot had been de- 
cided. His reason was this: The letter was written to us 
and was in type prior to the issuing of the programme for 
that shoot; realizing that it might be construed as a direct 
attack on the management of this year's State shoot, he 
wrote to us in a hurry to withhold the letter until after the 
Auburn shoot. Accordingly he withdrew it from the then 
current issue, only to have it escape our notice in the bustle 
attendant on going to press the day after Decoration Day. 
We regret our neglect in this matter, and trust that we 
have exculpated Mr. Gates from any blame on the part of 
the management of the New York State shoot. 
A LETTER TO BE ANSWERED. 
Ha\'ing appeared in type, such a letter should be answered, 
as it is the direct result of our request that such articles 
defending the "old system" and discrediting the Rose system 
should be sent in for publication 
Our first impression on reading Mr. Gates's contribution 
was one of regret that an attorney of his caliber should not 
have been able lo make out a better case. And our first im- 
pression has not been changed. Mr. Gates unfortunately 
argues from the standpoint of a man who goes to a shoot,, 
not for the sake of enjoying the sport, the good fellowship 
that always prevails at a tournament, nor for the purpose of 
meeting old friends and making new ones, but (we quote his 
own words) "because I have there a chance of winning those 
expenses by doing some good shooting." It would be perti- 
nent at this point to ask Mr. Gates whether, if he went on a 
camp hunt into the Adirondacks for a week, he would con- 
sider it necessary to sit down in that camp and play poker, 
for the purpose of making his friends pay for what he is en- 
joying? When Mr. Gates goes to the theatre, blows himself 
to an extra good meal at one of the swell restaurants in 
Utica, or takes a trip to the seashore, is he always on the 
lookout for others, besides his legitimate clients, from whom 
he may have "a chance of winning those expenses?" 
TRAP-SHOOTING IS DIFFERENT FROM OTHER SPORTS. 
Trap-shooting differs from other sports in the respect that 
trophies cannot always be made the bone of contention; yet, 
as a sport, it, like all others, needs some incentive to keep up 
interest in itself, a.nd sweepstakes are the only plaxisible way 
in which this can be done so far as we can see. In golf, lawn 
tennis, yachting and bicycling, there are, as a rule, but one 
or two prizes per day to compete for; that is to say, the com- 
petitions in which an individual can enter in those branches 
of sport in a single day, are extremely limited. A golf con- 
test practically lasts all day; the same with a yacht race. In 
lawn tennis it often takes two or three days to decide a sin- 
gle contest, by reason of the "heat system" of finding the 
winners. In bicycling it is unusual to find a competitor en- 
tering in more than two races on a single day. 
Again — save in yachting— the immediate outlay for each 
day's sport is extremely limited when compared with the 
expense attendant on a single day's trap-shooting. Leaving 
traveling expenses and entrance fees out of the question— as 
something incidental to all branches — in trap-shooting there 
is the additional cost of 200 .shells and the same number of 
targets, an expense that may be roughly figured at $9 per 
day, in addition to a practically unlimited number of con- 
tests. 
The number of events to be decided each day precludes a 
general distribution of cups and trophies, and the natural 
result seems to be cash sweepstakes of varying .size«. Such 
are the conditions of the sport. The only question that re- 
mains unsettled is that of dividing the purses. 
"THE BIGGEST FRAUD." 
In speaking of the Rose system Mr. Gates uses some strong 
language; he describes the system as "the biggest fraud on 
shooting men yet devised." He then desires to preface that 
statement by telling us that when he first studied the Rose 
system he was dead in love with it, but that now it was in 
disfavor with him. He also tells us that he is "just a plain, 
ordinary, every-day shooter, who can shoot fairly well one 
day and fairly poorly the next," adding that he is, therefore, 
"one of the fellows for whom this delectable Rose system 
was made." 
Is Mr. Gates satisfied that the Rose system does not re- 
duce "tho.se expenses"? Has he ever taken the trouble to 
work out, as we have done, the results that would have 
accrued to "a plain, ordinary, every-day .shooter" under both 
systems for a series of tournaments? Don't take a single, 
isolated case. It would be just as proper for the adherents of 
the Rose system to quote from solitary instances. The "plain, 
ordinary, every- day shooter" can never hope to win in the 
long run; the same class of man in any branch of sport is 
bound to be a loser oftener than he is a winner; his only hope 
lies in a handicap. In trap-shooting the above gentleman 
with three titles is the "producer" (another title), and our 
_efforts and the efl'orts of the Rose system are directed to 
make him liable for as small a share of the expenses of run- 
ning a tournament as possible. The outcry of the cracker- 
jacks against the Rose system is proof positive, if anything 
further were needed, that the Rose system minimizes their 
winnings. The conclusion is obvious that if winnings are 
minimized, the same must apply to losings. 
MR. GATES IS MISTAKEN. 
Mr. Gates makes a serious error in stating "that the trap 
editor is becoming converted and now opposes the Rosa 
system for live birds." The error probably arises from Mr. 
Gates's misconception of what we wrote in our report of the 
Newburgh, N. Y,, tournament, which was as follows: 
"But we do think the club made a mistake in dividing 
purses in the live-bird events on the same plan. For 5 and 
7-bird races we have always held out for high guns; say one 
high gun for every four or five entries. For 10-bird races 
and events calling for a still higher number of birds, we be^ 
lieve in adopting the same plan, basing the moneys on the 
number of entries, just as the Interstate Association did in 
its programme for this year's Grand American Handicap. 
Our reason for urging this system is the fact that live-bird 
shooting is more expensive and quite as easy as target shoot- 
ing, and that, therefore, under the Rose system or under 
the 'old system' it is quite pos,«ible for a man to kill them 
all and yet come out behind. We would rather see the 'old 
dropping-for-place system' in foi-ce for live-bird events than 
the E,ose system. Make it high guns all the time." 
We have always considered the Rose system in connection 
with target events, and have never argued in favor of its 
adoption for long or short live-bird races. While we think 
it might work well in 20 or 25-bird races, we much prefer the 
high gun system suggested above. 
THE CAUSE OF SMALL ATTENDANCE. 
In his closing paragraph Mr. Gates evidently desires to lay 
the blame for small attendances at tournaments at the door 
of the Rose system. We suppose that he intends us to de- 
duce that such is the case from his arguments, but we must 
confess our inability to do so. We think there are other rea- 
sons, and will advance a few: 
No. 1. Hard times. It costs money to go to a two or three 
days' shoot, and few men have now the means or the leisure 
to go to such affairs. Business is dull, and must be attended 
to very closely if a profit is to be made. 
No. 2. Number of Tournaments. — Our Fixtures columns 
for the past few months have shown such a large number of 
tournaments on the list, that anybody who wished to do so 
and had the means could have shot along week after week 
without having to make very long jumps to accomplish his 
object. This is a very different matter from what it was a 
few years ago. In the vicinity of all the large cities there is a 
shoot pretty nearly every week, and the "plain, ordinary, 
every day sliooter" prefers to attend such shoots to going to 
the larger aft'airs and being gobbled up by the experts. 
No. 3 "Once bitten," etc. The "plain, ordinary, every-day 
shooter" has also learned wisdom by bitter experience. He 
used to go to those tournaments, pay all the expenses of run- 
ning them and then stuff the pocketbooks of the expert. He 
doesn't do so any more. The most singular instance of an 
awakening on the part of the "producers" is furnished us in 
our correspondent's, Paul Litzke's, report of the recent 
Joplin, Mo , shoot, where §300 was added to the purses. Mr. 
Litzke's words on this point are worth noting. It should 
also be noted that at this tournament the purses were not 
divided under the Rose system. 
A BLOODED TOURNAMENT. 
If Mr, Gates and tliose who think with him want a really 
blooded tournament, one where they would certainly have 
"a chance of winning those expenses," let them get up a 
tournament where all ties shoot off, as in the ''good old 
days" Mr. Gates speaks about. The first one, owing to its 
novelty to the majority of shooters of the present day, many 
of whom may also have a "bump of vanity" with a notion 
concealed inside it that they "can shoot some," might be a 
success in point of attendance. But what of the second 
tournament of the same kind? 
The arguments he uses contain nothing new. They are 
the same as those made years ago by the few who made 
trap-shooting a profession against the many who made it 
their sport, and they are the same arguments which mace 
the Rose system a necessity. 
