Oct S3, 1897.] 
FOREST AND STREAM, 
s s s 
Before adjourning for recess, at 12:30, Com. Dunnell an- 
nounced the new committees, as follows: Eegatta commit- 
tee. Percy F. Hogan, Chairman; Raymond Appolonio, C. H. 
Williams; camp site committee, H. L. Quick, H. C. Morse; 
transportation committee, W, E. Barlow, C. V. Winne; 
auditing committee for report of board of governors, J. c! 
Mowbray, N. S. Hyatt. 
Luncheon was served in the room and the meeting recon- 
vened at 2 P. M. The following report of the regatta com- 
mittee was read; on motion of Mr. Stephens, seconded by 
Mr. Morse, the official record of races being omitted in the 
reading: 
Regatta Committee, Financial Report, 1 897. 
Expenses, 
Launch, charter.,,,,,,,.,.,,,,.,.,. $6 00 
....v.... v. ".1:"."",*.'. 137 50 
Prizes, express ......4.. ,, 1 OO 
Rope for buoys T,!!...!.' 2 60 
Cloth for buoys,,.,,.,.,.. ^ 73 
$147 78 
After recording in detail the race.? of the meet, the report 
concluded: "In order to correct misstatements regarding 
the trophy race, the rega,tta committee beg to state that on 
the evening of Aug. 17 the trophy race was posted, to take 
place the next afternoon. At the stated time a strong puflfy 
wind from the west was blowing, with a moderate sea run- 
ning, and the weather was not considered by the regatta 
committee as unsuitable for moderately canvased canoes. 
But as only one contestant appeared at the starting line, the 
race was postponed to the next day, with the result as given 
above. 
No protests were entered against the various rulings of the 
regatta committee. We wish to thank Commodore F. L. 
Dunnell for acting as clerk of the course. 
The regatta committee beg to submit the following recom- 
mendations: 
First— That the executive committee supply a suitable 
book in which all entries for the various races shall be made 
by the members; and the last half of the same book be ruled 
and headed suitably for the entry of the results of the vari- 
ous races. 
Second — That the executive committee provide a small 
steam launch to be placed at the disposal of the regatta com- 
mittee during the last week of the meet, in order to properly 
carry out the races and render assistance to contestants if 
necessary. 
Third— That the unclassified sailing race be dropped from 
the programme. 
Fourth— That open canoe sailing races be encouraged in 
future programmes, and that the regulations as to sail area 
and leeboards be made. 
Fifth— That all the paddling iraces except the trophy race 
be made with a turn on account of the increased interest in 
the contests and the convenience of the contestants and 
officials. 
Sixth— That the regulations regarding the paddling 
canoes be remodeled; and beg to submit the inclosed reports 
on the question, which have been published in the official 
organ. Respectfully submitted, 
J. W. Sparrow, Chairman. 
C. V. Schuyler. 
E. D. McA^'EAN. 
The members of the committee reported verbally that they 
had not been able to agree among themselves as to the 
recommendation or condemnation of any of the proposals. 
On motion of Mr. Dougla=, seconded by Purser Burrage, the 
report was accepted and filed. 
The election of associate members was then taken up, and 
the followiotf proposals con.<^idered: Mrs. M. T. Bennett, 
Mrs. C. W. Lanbing, Mrs. E. S. Towne, Mrs. C. V. Schuyler, 
Mrs. J. W. Sparrow, Mrs. L. S. Drake and Miss Libbie Pear- 
sail. In the case of two or three names there was no record 
of the formal secondiag by a member of the executive com- 
mittee, as required by the constitution, and a lengthy dis- 
cussion followed. It was finally decided that all of the 
names were properly before the meeting, and as noobjectiou 
was made to any, on motion of Mr. Morse, seconded by Mr. 
Mather, the Secretary-Treasurer was empowered to cast one 
ballot for all, and they were declared elected. 
The question of a camp site for 1898 was then taken up and 
suggestions asked for. Vice Com. Drake mentioned the wish 
of some of the Eastern Division for a meet on the Maine 
lakes, and suggested Moosehead Lake in particular; but the 
suggestion was not discussed. Lake Champlain and Lake 
George were each suggested, and Bow Arrow Point, the site 
of the 1SB7 camp, was discussed in detail. A letter was read 
from the proprietor of the Sagamore Hotel on Green Island, 
liake George, commending the site and offering special in- 
ducements. A general discussion ensued as to the desir- 
ability of one of the two lakes on the one hand, and the St. 
Lawrence River on the other. The Eastern Division strongly 
favored Lake Champlain, with Lake George as the second 
choice; but the discus.sion disclosed a very strong feeling 
against both lakes and in favor of the St. Lawrence above all 
other named locations. 
Mr, Mather stated that he had ascertained positively that 
the Forestry Commisbion of the State of New York had 
not purchased Grindstone Island, as reported during the 
summer. Mr. McKendrick read a long letter from Mr. 
Chaffee, of Stave Island, making a very liberal offer of the 
site and of special services in return for exclusive privileges 
of camp store, etc. The oft'er included the moving of the 
property stored on Grindstone Island, and special arrange- 
ments for removing the caterer's property so that he could 
conduct the mess as before. Mr. McKendrick spoke in glow- 
ing colors of the many advantages of the island. Mr. 
Stephens suggested that as the meet was under the manage- 
ment of the Atlantic Division this year, it might be well to 
hear from those who favored a site within the Division. 
Quite a number of Atlantic Division men were present by 
this time, but no suggestions were ottered. 
A motion was made by Mr. Douglas, seconded by Mr 
Mather, that the meet be held on Stave Island or Grindstone' 
Mr. Hall moved to amend by substituting "Lake George'' 
and Vice-Corn. Drake seconded the motion. Com. Dunnell 
resigned the chair to Vice-Corn. Hale, and spoke in favor of 
the St. Lawrence. The vote on the amendment had but five 
in the affirmative, and was lost. Mr. Douglas's motion was 
then voted on and carried by a large majority, thus deciding 
the matter in favor of Stave Island. 
A contract was read, between the officers on one hand and 
G. O. Shields, publisher of Recreation, on the other, by 
which Mr. Shields agreed to publish the Year Book free of 
cost. Recreation being named as an official organ. The 
officers were authorized to sign the contract. 
A motion was made by Sec'y-Treas. Schuyler, seconded b-^ 
Mr. Hall, that the Division pursers be instructed to forwai d 
t o the Secretary-Treasurer the complete list of new Division 
officers as soon as they were elected; carried. 
The report of the regatta commiLtee was then taken up. 
It was by this time quite late in the afternoon, and every- 
one was tired out by tlie heat and the continual noise. The 
report of the regatta committee, with the recommendations, 
was not offered for publication two weeks in advance, as it 
should have been, and the recommendations of the commit 
tee w'ere heard for the first time when the report was read 
The proposed changes of the rules, covering a number (f 
conflicting suKgestions, were merely read as printed in tie 
Forest AND Stream at different times, the regatta c. mniii 
tee declining to approve or condemn any of them. A Iter a" 1 
of thp f>ropose(l ohftDge.? were read by tbe Secrettijy, Mr, 
Stephens asked permission to speak on the amendment to 
Rule I, proposed by him in the Forest and Stream of Sept. 
18, and explained that it was practically but a re-arrange- 
ment of the existing rule, putting it in a simpler and more 
perfect form, with the addition of some provisions to govern 
canoes in paddling races. He read the proposed rule, explain- 
ing that it was in four parts, the first defining a canoe, the 
second describing the method of measurement for all canoes, 
the third limiting canoes in the sailing races, the fourth 
limiting canoes in the paddling races. He suggested, as 
tending to prevent confusion and to expedite business, that 
the first three beads should be taken up and discussed and 
voted upon, after which the fourth head, embodying the 
new features covered by different proposals, should be dis- 
cussed. A motion to adopt this portion of the amended rule 
was made by Mr. Mowbray and seconded by Mr. Douglas, 
being unanimously carried. 
The fourth portion was then taken up, Mr, Stephens ex- 
plaining that he was only respon.sible for the general form 
of the proposal, which was framed to embody the general in- 
tention of the various recommendations of the Northern 
Division special committee and others, and that as there 
was a difference in the dimensions proposed by different 
parties, the figures mentioned by him should be carefully 
discussed by those directly interested, the paddling men. 
The portion of the rule relating to single and tandem 
canoes was first taken up, and a lively di.scus8ion ensued. 
Although th§ proposal was published a month in advance, 
it was quite evident that one or two who opposed it and 
threatened to overthrow the entire amendment were not 
familiar with it, and had no understanding of its intent and 
effect. 
A motion was made that the amendment be not adopted, 
but was declared out of order. A further discussion dis- 
closed that the objection to the section was based largely on 
desire to allow the use of racing shell canoes in the trophy 
paddling race. 
_ Mr. Stephens stated that this was a totally separate ques- 
tion from that of the limitation of canoes in the regular 
paddling races, and suggested that the amendment be dis- 
cussed and voted on as applying to all canoes but those in 
the trophy race, and that the latter question be discussed 
separately and on its merits later. This was agreed to, and 
the single and tandem section was again taken up. Vice- 
Com, Drake objected to the minimum limit of depth, 12in., 
as too great for a paddling canoe, stating that many of the 
canoes in the Eastern Division were but lOin. deep. Mr, 
Mowbray objected on behalf of the sailing canoes. Mr. 
Stephens stsited that the figure was that proposed by the 
Northern Division, and the representatives of this division 
present spoke in favor of it as the standard depth of the 
Canadian open canoe Vice-Com. Drake moved to amend 
by inserting lOin. for 12in., seconded by Purser Burrage; and 
after further discussion Mr. Stephens suggested a compro- 
mise on llin. as originally proposed by Mr. Douglas, which 
was agreed to. 
Mr. Douglas then pointed out that Mr. Stephens's pro- 
posals left no margin for slight discrepancies in measure- 
ment such as were necessary where 30in. beam was the maxi- 
mum in the sailing races and the minimum in the paddling 
races, it being impossible to build to the exact 30in. Mr. 
Stephens accepted this suggestion, and it was agreed that it 
should be incorporated iu l^he rule. 
Vice-Com. Scott brought up the question of limit of 
weight, and suggested that as oOlbs , proposed by Mr. 
Stephens, was an average between the old limit of 5olbs. and 
the proposed one of 451bs., it should be accepted; but with 
the proviso that a deficiency of weight to the extent of not 
oyer 51bs. might be made up by ballast. This was agreed to 
without discussion, and on motion of Mr. Mowbray, seconded 
by Mr. DoUglas, the section was finally adopted. 
The next-section, relating to canoes "for crews of four, was 
quickly adopted, on Mr. Douglas's motion, without discus- 
sion. 
The final section, relating to war canoes, brought forth 
combatants in battle array. Vice-Com. Drake objected to 
the proposed limits of size, especially to the length limit of 
3.')ft., suggesting 30ft. as the approved length in the Eastern 
Division, where war canoe racing is very popular; and also 
objected to the limit of crew of fifteen men. Mr. Stephens 
explained that the amendment as framed by him merely in- 
corporated the suggestions of the Northern Division, the 
only ones made, except that he himself had suggested the 
establishment of limits of beam, depth and weight as in 
harmony with the limits in the other classes and desirable to 
regulate building; that the amendment had been published 
for a full, month in the Forest and Stream, and that- he had 
made special efforts to obtain critici.sm and suggestions 
from all interested parties, in order that the final discus- 
sion at the meeting might be as brief and concise as possible. 
The ensuing discussion between the repre.sentatives of the 
Eastern Division on the one hand and the Northern on the 
o^her became quite interesting; the former stood out for the 
30ft. canoe, with a crew of nine, as the most practicable size 
for transportation to meets and regattas; and the latter up- 
held the 35ft. canoe, with a crew of fifteen, as representing 
extensive vested interests in the Northern Division. As the 
discussion progressed, abstract figures were dropped and the 
matter threatened to resolve itself into a very animated ar- 
gument as to which party won the war canoe honors at the 
late meet. Even with this disturbing issue ruled out by the 
Commodore, the matter seemed at a deadlock between 30 
and 35ft.. as each side advanced excellent arguments and 
was not dispo.sed to surrender. Vice-Cora. Drake moved to 
amend the limits to 30ft. maximum length. 36in. minimum 
beam, 17in. minimum depth and ISOlbs. minimum weight, 
maximum crew, nine men. After the deadlock had contin- 
ued for some time, Mr. Douglas suggested that these limits 
be adopted, to apply to all new canoes, but that existing 
canoes be exempt. This solution of the difficulty was ac- 
cepted and the amendment carried. 
The question of the trophy paddling race was now taken 
up, and Vice-Com. Scott offered a motion that the rules as 
already adopted should govern canoes in the race for the 
paddling trophy, Mr. Douglas seconding. The discussion 
was very brief; on behalf of the racing shell, the following 
letters, sent to all of the committee, were presented; 
Detroit, Mich., Oct, 8— Dear Sir.— According to the 
Forest and Stream, our Canadian friends have again pro- 
posed penalizing the paddling canoe. Permit me to enter a 
protest against any such action I think it is a great mis- 
take they are making, for by limiting weight of canoe to not 
under 45lbs., they severely handicap the light weight paddler 
For you well know that the heavier the paddler the heavier 
his canoe ought to be. And the heavier the paddler, the 
more brute strength he usually possesses. And the lighter 
the paddler, the less supply of brute strength is his usually 
Why then penalize the light weight? For what advantage 
he has in weight he loses in brute strength. As well might 
one prescribe to bicycle racers that they shall ride racing 
wheels to weigh not less than 45lbs.; or to oarsmen and 
scullers that their racing shells shall not weigh less than 
451bs.; or in horse races that all sulkies shall not weigh less 
than451bs.; or that sprinters shall wear shoes on their feet 
to weigh not less than 451bs.; or— but enough, I might go on 
ad infinitum. 
By all means leave the question of weight of canoes alone 
Prescribe length and width, but go no further. If a pad-^ 
dler has the stuff in him to systematically train and prepare 
himself for the trophy, he will also be enterprising enough 
to provide himself (or. his club will) with the canoe best 
suited to his weight and purpose. 
And as the dimensions of 16 x 30 have become the standard 
why giiauge tUem and necessitate every patidler procuring a 
new canoe? It would almost appear as if the change were 
suggested by and in the interest of canoe-builders. 
The National Association of Amateur Oarsmen has no rule 
regarding weight of racing .shells; neither has the Amateur 
Athletic Union rules as"to weight of shoes of sprinters; nor 
has the League of American Wheelmen a rule regarding 
weight of racing wheels. And these organizations are, it 
must he admitted, purely amateur— especially the first two. 
And these same organizations, which have been in existence 
for years, and governed by men of brains and stahding, have 
seen fit not to penalize any competitor as to weight of racing 
shoes, shells or wheels; why. then, should the American 
Canoe Association permit itself to be bamboozled in the in- 
terest (to all appearance) of canoe-builders? 
_ It must be admitted, should these innovations be adopted, 
It will become mandatory for every racing paddler to procure 
a new canoe, the expense of which will make a grand total 
not to be sneezed at, and a very welcome addition to the in- 
come of the canoe builders; and the average paddler hasn't 
any more of this world's goods than he can conveniently take 
care of. In consequence, it would seem that the action to be 
taken in the premises should be that which will benefit the 
largest number of canoeists and not the canoe builders. And 
to benefit the largest number of canoeists the wisest course 
to pursue, it would seem to me, would be to leave the dimen- 
sions (which have become a standard, to wit: 16x30, with no 
limit of weight) severely alone. For. as stated above, no two 
paddlers weigh the same, and what will in weight benefit one 
will handicap the other; therefore, if I may be permitted to 
make a suggestion, wouldmost emphatically suggest: Hands 
off! and leave well enough alone. 
As this matter comes before the executive board, of whicb 
body you are a member, I believe, I would ask vour good 
offices m the direction that no action be taken, and that the 
suggestions of our Canadian friends be given a quietus 
As you well know, paddling is not on too firm a basis, and 
ought to be fostered instead of being handicapned. 
Our Canadian friends do not advocate a weieht limit on the 
sailing canoe. Why do they discriminate? Why should the 
sailing canoe be exempt? 
If it is a good thing for the paddler, why is it not equally as 
good for the sailing canoeist to limit his weight? 
I do not write this from personal considerations, for T have 
retired from racing, and, in consequence, will not be affected 
financially, but m the interest of the sport in general 
W. C. NOACK. 
Detroit, Oct. 13 — Dear Sir— The question of placing 
weight limit upon the paddling canoes that will come before 
the meeting of your board of governors on Oct. 16, I think 
should be considered very thoroughly. I know of no ama- 
teur sport where any class of man is handicapped It cer- 
tainly is a handicap for a light man to go into a boat weigh- 
ing 50lb.s. when he can have one built that will fill everv 
requirement weighing 25lbs. While a heavy man cannot 
make quite as good time in a heavy boat as he can in a light 
one, he is not handicapped to any such degree as a light- 
weight man. If a paddling canoe should be limited to SOlbs 
why not limit a sailing canoe to 2001b.s. or more, either 
weight being twice what is necessary. I can imagine the 
stir It would make if the executive committee of the Na- 
tional Association of Amateur Oarsmen were to consider a 
rule makmg shells weigh twice the weight that they can be 
built. _ If a man enters for contestant he goes in training 
and gives up many pleasures; I cannot see why. any handicap 
whatever should be placed upon them, and trdst that when 
this matter comes up you will give it the attention it de- 
serves, and believe that the best interests of the sport de- 
mand that a man should be allowed to build his boat within 
the restrictions for length and beam, and build as light as 
possible, as they are allowed to in all other sports Why 
not bar silk sails and hollow spars? So many questions and 
comparisons might be made that it would be a waste of 
time to write them now. Trusting that this will be received 
lavorably, I remain Wm. C. Jxjpp. 
A little was said in the line of similar argument, but the 
opinion of the majority was clearlv in favor of limiting the 
trophy race to service canoes. Vice-Com. Scott, who has 
several times contested for the trophy and vrho holds it now 
for the second time, spoke very strongly in favor of confin- 
ing the racing, as far as possible, to such canoea as were 
owned and used by the great majority of paddlers. Mr 
btepfaens spoke of the practical experience of many years 
which has failed to produce good competition and has 
brought to the meets many canoes of light and flimsy con 
struction and calculated only to harm canoeing. Mr Mow- 
bray and others spoke in favor of the further encouragement 
of the racing shell and of the highest possible speed The 
discussion was much less keen than on some of the previous 
questions, and Mr. Scott's motion was carried by a laree 
majority. ^ 
Mr. Stephens called attention to the desirability of some 
official recognition of the steering fin now used on some 
canoes, and pointed out that as the rules will stand this is 
not affected by the limitations of keel in sailing canoes He 
suggested, as the question of the admissibility of this device 
must come up sooner or later in a race, po.ssibly leading to 
dispute and protest, it might be well to deal with it as far as 
possible in advance, and suggested the following resolution 
which was moved by Vice-Corn. Scott and seconded by Mr' 
Douglas: It is the sense of the executive committee that the 
use of a steering fin on a paddling canoe shall not be per- 
mitted. The resolution was carried. After Mr. Douglas's 
amendment concerning the board of governors was passed 
his proposal to limit the sail area in open canoes to 40sq ft ' 
with no seat to project beyond the side of the canoe, and no 
rudder, was adopted. 
The first of the racing regulations, as finally amended, 
reads as follows: ' 
Rule I. 
DEFINITION. 
A canoe to compete in any race in the American Canoe 
Association must be sharp at both ends, with no counter- 
stern or transom, and muse come within the limits nre- 
scribed for its class. 
measurement. 
The length shall be taken between perpendiculars at the 
foreside of the stem and the after side of the stem The 
beam shall be taken at the widest part, wherever found and 
shall not include the beading, provided that it does not ex- 
ceed l^^in. in depth; if the beading exceeds this depth it 
shall be measured as part of the beam. The word "beam" 
shall mean the breadth formed by the fair lines of the boat- 
and the beam at and near the waterline shall bear a rea- 
sonable proportion to the beam at the gunwale. A varia- 
tion of not over j^in. shall be allowed in excess of the 
maximum beam in canoes in sailing races, and the same 
amount in deficiency of minimum beam in canoes in pad- 
dling races. The draft shall be measured at the deepest 
point, wherever found The depth shall be measured from 
the inside of the garboard next the keel to the lower side of 
a straight-edge laid across the gunwales, or to a similar 
height in a decked canoe. The sail area shall be measured 
by dividing into triangles in the usual manner, the sail 
being stretched taut and fiat on a level surface. 
DBIENSIONS AND LIMITATIONS. 
Sailing. 
To be eligible to sailing races a canoe must comply with 
the following limitations: The length shall be limited to a 
maoamum of 16ft., w;ith an accompanying maximum beam 
of 30m< For each full incJi of decrease in leugth t-he beam 
