Nov. 0, t3&t,l 
FOREST AND STREAM. 
Measurement Rules—A Rejoinder. 
JSditOT Forest and Stredm: 
The reply of the authot of the proposed uew toeftsufemeiit 
formula to the criticisms of the Writer deserves comment. 
First head (a) — the statement that many yachtsmen and 
the yachting press generally, agree that "a measurement 
rule is intended to encourage the development of a safe, 
roomy, speedy and easily handled yacht," and that this is 
"of the first importance," ia no answer to the demand for 
reasons that would justify the attempt to measure speed and 
to control design by the same formula. 
He next says: "All the single formula rules have failed 
heretofore because they have followed Sextant's advice and 
have made 'supplementary regulations stating in plain terms 
how much breadth, draft, cubic contents, displacement of 
hull, etc., are deemed indispensable for a given L.W.L.' " If 
the author can cite any cases that tend to prove this asser- 
tion he should do so. The writer knows of none. 
It is also said that Sextant gives no objections to the use 
of a single formula for measuring speed and controlling de- 
sign. The following were stated and seem to have been 
overlooked, viz. : That such procedure is illogical because the 
two purposes are entirely different in character; that this 
plan nas uniformly failed heretofore, and that better results 
will be had by treating each problem separately. 
To the suggestion that if. measuring speed and controlling 
desifrn were entirely new problems it is inconceivable that 
any engineer would try to solve them by the application of 
the same formula, the author replies: "The primary purpose 
of all yacht designing is supposed to be to develop forms from 
which lessons having a commercial value can be drawn." 
This is not at all to the point, and it is open to question as an 
independent proposition. It was supposed by the writer that 
the primary purpose of yacht designing is sport—cruising 
and racing — and that the end of yacht designing should be 
the development of the speediest hull consistent with safety 
and comfort. If lessons having a commercial value, such as 
the matter of carrying cajjacity (except on the weather rail), 
have been studied of late in yacht designing they have pro- 
duced small results. 
■ It is further said that "Sextant must produce cogent rea- 
sons to overcome so universal an experience (the commer- 
cial purpose in yacht designing) and establish what appears 
to be his contention that the only purpose of a measurement 
rule is to produce speed." There is nothing in his communi- 
cation that shows any such contention. His assumption is 
that the prime function of measurement rules is to furnish a 
basis for comparing speed, i. e., to measure speed, not to pro- 
i duce it. 
The author seems to hold that a measurement rule is 
primarily not a measuring device, but a means of controlling 
the form of yachts; and that it is so much the best means of 
controlling form, that it is not worth while to give reasons 
' for usmg it for this purpose. Yachts are raced together to 
discover which one has the greatest speed. If all are of the 
same size, a time-piece is sufficient to settle the question. If 
they are of different sizes, a measurement rule is necessary 
to decide the matter. The size of a yacht is a complex thing. 
An excellent discussion of "size" may be found in the 
"Yacht Designing" articles now appearing in the FOREST 
AND Stream. Measurement rules are based upon the fact 
that large boats are faster than small ones; and it is the 
main function of such rules to sum up the different elements 
of size into a single term, "racing size," which shall have a 
deflnite numerical relation to speed, so that appropriate 
time allowances from large yachts to smaller ones may be 
computed. 
This function of measurement rules the author of the new 
rule practically ignores in his discussion. Undoubtedly 
measurement rules have an effect in controlling the forms 
of yachts, but the total effect cannot be foreseen. The pres- 
ent Seawanhaka rule is an excellent illustration of the im- 
possibility of foreseeing the effect of the formula type of 
measurement rules upon form. Note the time that elapsed 
and the number of yachts that were built under the formula 
before Glencairn I. was produced. The question now is 
whether it is better to follow again this indirect method in 
the attempt to build up a fleet of wholesome yachts, or to 
take the direct method and state precisely what is desired 
in the matter of form. The Boston knockabouts furnish an 
illustration of the direct method. All existing freaks are 
an illustration of the indirect method. 
(h) "To equalize the chances of winning prizes between 
boats of different types and characteristics" was given as 
the second function of the formula. Commenting on this it 
was pointed out that it is uncertain whether this refers to 
the ordinary races between racing yachts or to such contests 
as the handicap races, which are sometimes arranged for 
cruisers and racers together. The author's reply indicates 
a possibility that the new formula is not intended to meas- 
ure speed; and that the purpose is to substitute for them 
competitions in general excellence, in which other good 
qualities, as safety, ease of handling and internal accommo- 
dation, are to be considered with speed in awarding the 
prizes. If such a revolutionary scheme is intended it should 
be definitely announced, so that yachtsmen may discuss it 
intelligently. 
Replying further, the author says: "Sail area is not in the 
least a factor in the speed that comes from length" ; and he 
demands arguments in support of the contrary view. If 
yachts of different length be tested with the same sail 
spread little, if any, increase of speed will be found with in- 
creased length. The speed that is commonly said to come 
from length is mainly an effect of the larger sails that are 
used on the longer boats. 
(d) "To leave owner and designer absolutely free to produce 
anything they please." "In no way can so much positive 
knowledge be obtained as in experimenting, and so in no 
way can yachting be benefited. If this is granted, it must 
also be granted that a good rule will not limit a designer in 
any direction." 
Tested by the foregoing conditions, the proposed new rule 
is a poor one, for it limits the designer in several directions, 
[t was made on purpose to do so, and to drive out the current 
type of racing machines, and to induce the building of safer, 
more roomy, and more easily handled yachts. It is obvious 
ihat any rule or formula that contains more than oae di- 
mension of a yacht limits the designer. The more dimen- 
sions there are included, the more it limits him. The new 
formula limits him more than the present Seawanhaka 
[ormula — more, in fact than any American formula the 
writer has ever seen — and this is its merit. The trouble is 
t does not state these limits, so that any one can see what 
ihey are at a glance; and they may be limits that will pro- 
duce undesirable yachts. The new formula contracts the 
ield for ex]Deriment to the narrowest limits. It is only be- 
iause of this ignorance that under this formula a designer 
would have any field at all for experiment. The rule really 
Qlows none. There is likely to be only one winning com- 
jination of immersed body, topsides and sail area; and if 
;he designer had sufficient insight or skill in interpreting 
he rule, he would go straight to that combination without 
^xperiment. 
Designers have two main problems to solve. One is the 
general question of the resistance of partly submerged 
jodies moving in water. In this field there should be the 
videst opportunity; for experiment. The other, which as a 
iractical problem is perhaps the more troublesome of the 
.wo, is the interpretation of measurement formulse of the 
ype of the one now proposed. Tnis is an artificial problem 
hat may in great measure be avoided. Experiment in this 
iield is largely a waste of energy and money, and it should 
le kept within the narrowest limits possible. This may be 
done by making tules Which ate as .simple and as ptecise as 
possible, hence attempts to Control form should be made by 
explicit statements of dimensions, and not by complicated 
formul;B, any number of which may be changed at will, and 
whose ultimate meaning no one can foresee. The best way 
to encourage experiments concerning the physical question 
of resistance mentioned above, is to reward speed alone. 
Set all designei's at work to discover speed factors, and inter- 
fere with this quest as little as possible. State theminimum 
amount of hindrances to speed, such hs displacement and 
topsides, that must be insisted upon for the sake of safety 
and comfort, and give them otherwise entire freedom. 
Furthermore, yacht owners and club members are entitled 
to some consideration. They have little inclination to waste 
time in the study of formulse whose effect experts cannot 
discover, and they should not be asked to accept on faith a 
new rule for controlling design. 
With a simple rule to measure speed, and with form con- 
trolled by specific restrictions easily understood by every- 
body, steady progress could be made toward the development 
of the ideal yacht. With single formula rules a large part 
of the experience gained is worthless under the next formula, 
which is sure to come. 
Fourth Head. — (1), "The universal experience heretofore 
of rules supplemental to the measurement formula giving 
arbitrary limits to certain factors has been bad." 
The citation of a few of these cases would be appropriate. 
(3) To the suggestion that only enough cubic size of hull 
should be required to insure safety and internal accommoda- 
tion, the author says: "the amount of room necessary to in- 
sure safety and internal accommodation is one that must be 
fixed, at least in the second element, by the owner." This 
is an abandonment of the stated purpose of the formula to 
control those elements. If H (hull) is left in the formula, 
its effect should be to produce just enough cubic size of hull 
to insure safety and accommodation. Otherwise, the form- 
ula is a failure, and H might better be excluded. 
The objection that the formula credits all size, whether 
superfluous or reasonable, as equivalent to speed is met by 
an emphatic denial that it does so. 
If in a contest under this formula, a yacht finishing first 
loses to a slower one having a larger hull, it would seem to 
be a fair use of language to say that in such case size is 
credited as equivalent to speed. 
The author claims that the formula "credits excessive size 
as being -a desirable quality in a yacht." It is likely that 
this is a slip of the pen, or a printer's mistake. If he means that 
size is a desirable quality, that does not answer the objection 
that excessive size is not desirable. 
(3) It was objected "that the formula gives to topsides 
and deck house equal credit with immersed body," whereas 
"in the matters of safety and general desirability, they are of 
very unequal worth." 
The author replies that "it is a mistaken assumption to 
say that they are not desirable," and he quotes the editor of 
Forest and Stream to the effect that they are desirable. 
This is singular argument. • 
(4) The objection was made here that this type of rule is 
sure to produce a racing machine. The reply is that, on the 
contrary, it prohibits the building of racing machines; and 
in proof Canopus and Akista are used to illustrate the fact 
that the rule bears more heavily on a small boat with large 
sail than on a large boat with small sail. This has no ten- 
dency to show that racing machines of other shape cannot 
be successfully raced under the rule. The result might be 
very different if, for example, Canopus had topsides enough 
to make her cubic contents as large as those of Akista. 
It is impossible to ascertain a priori the effect of the rule. 
There is no way to test it except by trying it on existing 
boats built under other rules. This has been the trouble 
with all the old rules. They worked well with the boats of 
the old fleet, but designers proceeded to make something 
entirely different. The author of the new rule knows that 
with existing boats the scheme will work, for he has tried it. 
He cannot know how it will work with yachts of different 
shape built to fit the rule. 
(5) "The formula is not suitable for measuring speed, be- 
cause its factors (save oneX have no numerical relations to 
speed that can be definitely and accurately stated." 
The only answer to this is that it "falls to the ground on 
account of (a)." 
This is not explicit enough to be understood hj the writer. 
There seems to be nothing in (a) on this point. If this 
means that it is not intended to use the new formula for 
measuring speed, it ought to be plainly stated and not left 
to inference. 
(6) "Under this kind of rule the cleverest interpreter of the 
formula wins, not the designer of lines to give the least re- 
sistance." 
The author answers, "This is distinctly wrong. That de- 
signer wins who produces the best lines on the biggest hull 
with the smallest sail area; that is, who produces the best all- 
around boat (under the rule), and this is inevitable." 
This answer is only a paraphrase of objection (6) and ad- 
mits its validity. Such a measurement rule transforms 
yacht designing into a mathematical study of formulae; into 
a nice balancing of the relative worth, under the rule, of 
topsides and immersed body, with speed; and the calcula- 
tion of how much speed would better be sacrificed to top- 
sides and deckhouse in order to win. If the designer finds 
that he can drive a given amount of hull through the air 
easier than through the water, as seems probable, he will 
make the topsides as large as possible and the displacement 
as small as possible. He will have little regard for safety 
or convenience. He will strive only for the largest number 
of points under the formula in which size of deckhouse 
counts as well as speed. 
When an individual goes to a designer for a design, he 
states first what he requires in the matters of safety and ac- 
commodation. Then, in addition, he always asks for all the 
speed possible. If there is any good reason why a yacht 
club should not follow precisely the same course in" relating 
its wants, it is tmknown to the writer. 
(8) The author says: * * * "a few such boats (large 
topsides, small displacement and deep draft) would prove a 
desirable lesson to those men who think that designing con- 
sists in beating the rule by an exaggeration of untaxed ele- 
ments, instead of by an adherence to principles that are or 
should be well established and known to every designer of 
reputation." 
(c) "Yachtsmen, generally, are a fair-minded body of men, 
and it is believed that if they feel that a rule is fair they 
will not attempt to beat it, but will strive to produce the 
best possible." 
These two quotations present the view that racing ma- 
chines are the result of unfairness on the part of designers 
and owners. The truth is, owners and designers, in order to 
win, are obliged to design and build such yachts as the 
measurement rule calls for. The responsibility for racing 
machines lies entirely with formula makers. It is impossi- 
ble to "beat" a rule in any proper sense. What is called 
beating the rules is interpreting them accurately and follow- 
ing them implicitly. Beating rules is only another way of 
saying that designers discover more possibilities in the rules 
than their authors suspected. All trouble from so called 
rule-beating will cease when rules are expressed in terms that 
cannot be misunderstood. 
The allowance of time by a small yacht to a larger one 
(both having the same length and sail) is so illogical that it 
is not surprising that the author dodges the concrete ques- 
tion put to him, and does not attempt to explain on what 
basis the amount of such allowance should be computed. 
He admits that "speed ia influenced by displacement in an 
unknown ratio; no satisfactory data exists for determining 
it approximately.^' iTet lie Wisliea tts to believe tliafc incteas- 
ing tj. by per (Jetlt. for rating ptU'pose3» and applying 
H. 
the Herreshoff time allowances (which he also says "are not 
correct either theoretically or pratfcically"), will produce 
just the right proportions of displacement, topsides and sail 
area to make a safe, roomy, speedy and easilyhandled 
yacht. 
The philosophy of measurement rules is well stated by C. 
in his contribution to the discussion. SeXtant. 
YACHTINQ NEWS NOTES. 
Nahma, steam yacht, Robert Goelet, arrived at Newport 
on Oct. 28 after a passage of twelve days. Capt. Churehhill 
is in command. 
Cincinnati Rifle Association. 
ClNoiNNATr, O , Oct. 17.— The following scores were made by mem- 
bers of ibe OinciDnati Rifle Assoelitiou at their range to-day. Con- 
ditious, 200yds , ofC-tiand, ac the German ring target, Gin dele was 
declared king to-day, with a score of 209. On the honor target Gin- 
dele led, with a score of 06. A very tricky fish tail wind blew in the 
faces of the shooters all day, making it very disagreeable: 
Giudele £0 23 91 25 21 S2 23 a.3 20 19-217 
20 2.3 24 S;3 21 23 22 16 19 25-S16 
Nestler 23 24 17 14 19 25 24 23 21 25—215 
19 23 S3 2.^ 21 Z-i 23 24 21 13 -2ia 
Payne ,34 25 23 19 20 22 23 19 25 21—821 
19 25 18 23 23 19 23 18 S3 19-208 
Topf..... 16 14 19 17 24 22 17 16 22 14-181 
13 11 28 20 16 15 15 17 31 22—173 
Tromistine .19 15 21 24 20 24 22 16 24 33— £07 
21 15 19 24 20 9 21 24 19 16-198 
Roberts 22 19 21 24 18 15 20 17 20 21—197 
16 20 20 22 15 21 22 24 15 21—196 
Uckotter 24 19 20 19 7 23 16 24 18 U—m 
19 14 17 24 18 23 18 21 20 8-182 
Strickmier , 24 19 22 18 16 24 20 18 16 19— 19a 
S3 22 7 18 12 20 15 21 23 21-18i 
Drube 18 25 20 18 13 21 22 22 21 16-186 
20 19 23 14 22 22 21 18 16 7— Itl 
Hasenzahl 21 7 23 25 23 25 21 22 11 22— 2C0 
21 17 19 22 20 24 17 23 20 19-20 i 
*Kine 1 14 23 15 16 16 7 18 16 16-138 
♦Panllin , 18 30 19 2 24 11 20 1 4 16—126 
* Visitors. 
King target: 
Gindele... .....^„ 20 23 19 19 .9 23 19 24 23 20-209 
N.-Rtler.„.,....„;,i,,; 2-2 24 15 21 23 21 11 24 17 25—202 
Payne 1,5 24 20 13 24 23 21 21 25 19- -204 
Topf .i.i.i... 20 18 16 iO 17 14 17 18 18 10-168 
Trounstine ,,. 20 19 14 22 18 21 20 13 21 18-180 
Roberts ......(. ?4 19 16 7 17 16 19 22 18 20—178 
Uckotter , .....23 18 13 15 20 23 19 11 17 20—178 
Strickoaier., ,i..«^i...;,t...l7 31 15 11 21 19 17 15 22 IS-l";? 
Drube ..,.,tt..i.i 18 SO 20 17 25 23 18 18 13 19-191 
Hasenzahl 31 15 14 17 21 15 19 18 23 22-181 
Honor target: 
Gindele S3 S3 20— 66 Roberts 24 9 14-47 
Nestler ,....^.....,,.20 '<2 21-63 Uckotter 22 20 16-58 
Payne 16 19 20—65 Klrickmier.. 20 18 16-.' 4 
Topf 15 17 21—5.3 Drube .22 23 21-65 
Trounstine 17 16 23—55 Hasenzahl 18 16 31-55 
Zettler Rifle Club. 
New York, Oct. 26.— Sunday last, Oct. 84, marked the close of the 
outdoor season of the Zettler Rifle Club. The winter season of gallery 
work commenced this evening at the club's headquarters, 219Bowery- 
The weekly club shoots will now be held at the above address every 
Tuesday evening until March 89. Each member is entitled to shoot 
fire scores at every club shoot. The scores of the members present 
this evening were: 
M Dorrler , 246 245 246 244 247—1327 
LFIach 239 240 247 242 ?49— 1217 
H Holges.- 246 845 241 238 244-1214 
C Zettler, .Jr 286 244 2.39 245 240—1204 
B Zettler .,.2.35 2tl 244 242 239-1201 
L P Hansen ,,, , 237 243 240 241 240—1200 
S Buzzini „...-.. ,•...2:67 340 241 240 2:38-ll&6 
W A Hicks 2:9 248 242 238 241— IlPa 
HDMuUer 283 i.36 241 242 240—1191 
G P Williams 216 830 241 24i 241—1169 
H Muenz 313 237 286 228 2.35-114S 
Calumet Heights Rifle] Scores. 
CmcAGo, III,, Oct. 24.— The following scores were made to-day by 
members of the Grand Calumet Htights Club on the club"s ranges. 
Condiuons. 10 shots, 800yds.: 
Medal shoot Practice. 
Davis 6426727744-49 3 10 5 3 6 5 3 6 1 4- 4j 
Norcom 4237581406 -c8 
Harlan 8673246394—51 
Patti. 
Leading dealers in sportsmen^s supplies have advertised in oi.r 
columns continuously for almost a quarter century. 
If you want your shoot to be announced here 
send In notice like the following: 
iFIXTURES. 
Nov. 6.— Chicago, 111.— Gilbert-Elliott match for the Kansas City 
Star cup 
Nov. 6.— PHiLADSLpmA, Pa,— Seventh monthly contest of the Phil- 
adelphia Trap- Shooters' League, under the auspices of the Silver 
Lake &un Club. Coaches meet cars from the city at Second and 
Mifflin. 
ISov. 16-19 —DBS Moines, la.— Tournament under the management 
of Mr. W. E. Kessier. First two dayi=, open to amateurs only; last 
two days, open to the world. Added prizes each day. Live birds on 
the atfernoons of Nov. 17 and 19. For programmes address W. E» 
Kessier, 1105 Maple street, Des Moines, la. 
Nov. 25. — Buffalo, N. Y.— Thanksgiving Day tournament of the 
Bison Gun Club. Sweepstakes and merchandise events. C. H. Wer- 
lin. Sec'y, 163* Broadw.ay. Buffalo, N. Y. 
Dec. 8-10.— Indianapolis, ind. -Tournament of the Limited Gun 
Club. First diy, sparrows; last two days, pigeons. Dec. 10, Grand 
Central handicap, 25 ijigeons, $35, birds extra. Entries close Nov. 30, 
with a forfric of $10; post entries, $30. Handicaps, 35 to 33yQs. 
Royal Robin.son, Sec'v 
1898. 
Jan. Ig-W — Hamilton, Ont.— Gi-and Canadian Handicap. Li'e 
birds; SI, 000 guaranteed. For full information write secretary. H, 
Graham, American Hotel, Hamilton, Ont , Can. 
March 3»'-24.— Ei.kwood Pabk, L ng Branch, N. J.— Interstate Asso- 
ciation's sixth annual Grand Anjt ricau Handicap. 25 birds, $i5, birds 
extra; $1,000 guaranteed to the three hjgh guns; all surplus added. 
DRIVERS AND TWISTERS. 
Club secretaries are invited to send their scores for publication i/n 
these columns, also any news notes they may care to have printe.t,. 
Ties in all events are considered as divided uulfss otherwise reported. 
Mail all s^lch matter to Forest and Stream -Publishing Company, S/16 
Broadway, New York. 
Mr. E. A. Jackson, secretary of the Bergen Coimty Gun Club, of 
Hackensack, N. J., who received a serious injury to his right eye dur- 
