E. I. GOLDSMITH, J. MOOR-J ANKOWSKI AND J. DAVIS 
1053 
(LEMSIP) : design and operation. In: Medical Pri- 
vmtology, S. Karger, Basel/New York, 1971. 
DISCUSSION 
Chairman Mcpherson: You said that you 
went back to the person who had the principal 
use of the primate and asked his permission to 
use it on a simultaneous protocol. I was wonder- 
ing what your experience on acceptance rate of 
this has been. How often do you get turned 
down? 
Dr. Goldsmith : Well, I should say that the 
model for the development of this concept 
comes from the great generosity of Alexander 
Weiner, who, working with Dr. Moor-Jan- 
kowski, actually was the primary investigator 
who helped us develop this whole program. It 
was his baboons, his and Dr. Moor-Jankowski's, 
which were used by the rest of us in getting this 
thing off the ground. So with that example, it 
was very difficult for any subsequent investiga- 
tors to say "no" to simultaneous and sequential 
utilization. 
I can remember one situation where an inves- 
tigator was studying alcoholism in relation to 
liver function and whose program called for se- 
quential liver biopsies over a period of several 
years. We were anxious to obtain liver tissue to 
give to other people who were also interested in 
the same material. He refused. We spoke to him 
at some length, and he demonstrated to us that 
the biochemical and histologic studies that he 
had programmed for his animals simply made it 
impossible for him to part with any of that 
liver tissue. He was willing to allow us to use 
other biologicals from his animals but no liver. 
The Utilization Committee accepted that re- 
fusal. I don't remember any other example. 
Now I should say that the formal presentation 
of the request to the investigator usually is pre- 
ceded by considerable discussion, and so the ac- 
ceptance rate, as you say, has been extremely 
high. This has brought together a lot of people 
who ordinarily don't talk to one another. For 
example, I previously mentioned about our 
work in the surgical treatment of schistosom- 
iasis. We have a number of animals harboring 
schistosomal infections. One of my ophthalmo- 
logic friends heard about these baboons and 
asked if he couldn't do lens transplants. Since 
there was no incompatibility at all, we were 
very happy to have him come and operate on 
the eyes of these animals. So there are many 
ways that people and projects can be put to- 
gether. 
Jules Cass, Veteran's Administration, 
Washington, D.C. : Dr. Goldsmith, apparently 
the system that you're using, accountability for 
funding, must be an integral part of what 
you're doing and the success that you've had. It 
does relate to the fact that you have not com- 
promised the fundamental facilities and the hu- 
mane aspects of the maintenance of the animal. 
It would seem that you have a system that is su- 
perior to the ones we've been working with and 
I say "we" in the general scientific community, 
because we periodically find that we are in need 
of large sums of money in order to upgrade 
what we are doing and to avoid the compro- 
mises that are so frequent in the animal support 
area. 
Dr. Goldsmith : Thank you Dr. Cass. I think 
sometimes there's an advantage in being poor. 
This has been a bootstrap operation and a lot of 
what you saw in the way of development of fa- 
cilities has come from necessity. For example, 
you notice that all of those cages are galvanized. 
There isn't a stainless steel cage in the whole 
place. This has been partially due to the fact 
that the evolution of caging is something that 
we're actively pursuing. The cages that were 
used some time ago have now evolved into bet- 
ter models but we see no reason to invest in 
what might be called permanent caging during 
a period when we are learning about how to im- 
prove our methods. I should say parenthetically 
that we don't really have any great problem 
with the galvanized cages. Now in the case of 
the chimpanzees, the use of aluminum caging 
has been a tremendous help and a great saving 
in money, too. 
Dr. Pow^ell, NIH : Apart from the remarka- 
ble success of this program in terms of its scien- 
tific interests and its example for social cooper- 
ation and organization, can you say a word 
about what must be an interesting logistics 
problem. How do you handle the administrative 
and logistics problem of getting the maximum 
information out of all the experiments and pro- 
