1286 
THE USE OF ANIMALS IN MEDICAL RESEARCH AND EXPERIMENTATION 
attending veterinarian's authority should go in 
regard to the review of the protocol, the proce- 
dures, the experiments themselves. 
Dr. Stilson : Are we to look over their pro- 
tocol before they do it and approve it or dis- 
approve it? 
I, like everybody else in this room, use the 
Heart & Lung group's word when they certify 
that something did happen. They want to know 
it did happen. Now how can I be every place 
and know that it did happen? The only thing I 
can do is rely on people in whom I have confi- 
dence as to their professional capabilities and 
their integrity. 
Dr. Schwindaman : I think that we certainly 
appreciate that as highlighting the question of 
what specific information is needed. I think we 
all find ourselves in somewhat of a difficult 
situation in each aspect, the difficulty as re- 
flected by the panel here trying to put into 
perspective regulations and policy on the one 
hand as well as trying to deal with some of the 
very detailed things involved in organizational 
structure and policies of administration. 
I think that's an awfully large question when 
we talk about how it affects the individual struc- 
ture and highly personalized, so I think they'd 
appreciate dealing directly with you. I would 
suggest that you talk about the details of the 
structure within your institution possibly after 
the discussion at the present time. 
Dr. Estelle H. Geller, Albert Einstein Col- 
lege of Medicine, New York: When a grant is 
approved by NIH, are we to assume that their 
criteria have been met by the specific investiga- 
tor's protocol? 
Dr. Schwindaman : If we approve and fund 
a grant to your institution, can your institution 
then assume that it has done everything that 
it's supposed to do ? Is that the question ? 
Dr. Conner: I don't really think you can 
make that assumption. The responsibility is 
reallly directed back to the institution. At the 
moment, this NIH policy is a general broad- 
based thing that goes on and on. What we ask 
you to do is tell us how you're going to manage 
this, there is one or the other of two different 
routes, either AAALAC accreditation or the 
existence of a faculty committee. The respon- 
sibility is there with the faculty committee. 
You can assume that that grant has been 
reviewed by a study section and a PG. Q-56 
council, both of which have looked at the same 
things. They are charged with the responsibility 
just as well as your committee. 
So, in a sense, my answer would be in the 
affirmative; yes, you can assume that our re- 
view has not turned up anything questionable. 
Dr. Geller: I have one more question. If in 
the opinion of the research committee of the 
institution or the attending veterinarian, some- 
thing isn't quite right, that unnecessary pain 
can be avoided, or whatever, can the investiga- 
tor . . . say, "Well, I didn't know anything about 
that." 
Dr. Schwindaman: The question was is 
there any punitive action, mainly legal sanction 
against the experiment, to the researcher who 
does not follow the suggestions of, perhaps, the 
institutional committee. 
The law itself does not have any particular 
legal sanction against the researcher himself. 
The legal sanction would be against the reg- 
istered research facility, so how this would 
come to our attention would be another matter. 
It may be through the attending veterinarian. 
It may be through the institutional committee. 
Or it may be through our inspector, making 
inspections of the premises. 
But most assuredly the responsible officials of 
the institution would know about it first. We're 
not in the business to have alleged violations. 
We're not in the business of providing hu- 
mane care and handling for the animals as pro- 
vided by the law. 
Dr. Geller : I don't mean to imply that any 
thing's wrong in my institution. 
Dean Franklin, Scripps Clinic & Research 
Foundation : As an outsider and something of a 
layman here, I feel that . . . you can't lay down 
solid guidelines in hospitals and make laws to 
uphold these guidelines. 
Dr. Conner : I think that there are two points 
we can address, possibly the scientific side of 
the guidelines. My answer concerns how you 
organize a facility to implement the guidelines 
in your institution. 
Dale, would you like to further amplify on the 
scientific aspect of the guidelines? 
Dr. Schwindaman: Well, our initial reac- 
