SCHWINDAMAN, CONNOR, MCPHERSON, PIERCE, NORMAN, CASS, PARKER & HARMISON 1289 
such time when farm animals are included, if a 
university and the Agriculture experimentation 
station has a herd of farm animals in a pasture 
where they have plenty of room, and are not 
confined in a small enclosure, they would not be 
covered, even though they may be involved in 
some breeding or nutrition research. But if they 
are brought under laboratory conditions, then 
they would be covered. 
Now I realize there's a gray area here and 
there's a lot to be discussed and determined 
here before we make our final decision, but this 
is our thinking at the present time. 
Mr. Frank J. McMahon, Humane Society: 
Dale, you stated that the annual report is not 
public information and will not be. I assume 
by that you mean it will be privileged informa- 
tion. I would like to know whether that deci- 
sion has already been made by the USDA attor- 
neys or that this is something you're just spec- 
ulating. 
Dr. Schwindaman: The decision has been 
made by the the USDA legal counsel that the 
intent of the law, as worded, is that this would 
be privileged information and not available for 
release to the public until such time as it is 
released by the President of the Senate or the 
Speaker of the House. 
Leonard Lewis, CIBA Pharmaceutical Co., 
Morris, N.J. : I was wondering if you would 
reiterate your statement on rats and mice being 
excluded. Did I understand that right? I was 
asked to find out about the housing of animals. 
There would seem to be some question about 
putting certain rats and mice in the same room, 
or not putting mice and hamsters in the same 
room. Could you comment on this? 
Dr. Schwindaman: The question was, first 
of all, are I'ats and mice covered under the def- 
inition at the present time. No, rats or mice are 
not covered, they are excluded across the board. 
The second part of the question was the 
separation of species. In developing our law, 
one of the requirements was that we develop 
standards for separation of species. This means 
that you can have species in the same room, but 
you cannot have them in the same primary en- 
closure. So, you could have several cages of rats, 
several cages of mice, and several cages of 
guinea pigs and hamsters in the same room 
under the same environmental conditions but 
not in the same primary enclosure. 
Either Mearl A. Kilmore or C. J. Starch, 
College of Osteopathic Medicine and Surgery, 
Des Moines : I'd like to address this question 
to Dr. Conner or somebody from NIH. When 
you say that grantees must follow the rec- 
ommendations of the Guide for Laboratory 
Animal Care and Facilities, do you mean, for 
example, that all cat cages must be 24" high 
as is stated in Table I on page 27 in that Guide, 
or do you mean that, in effect, we must have 
cages that correspond exactly with this Guidel 
Dr. Conner : I'm not a DVM and not a real 
authority on what's in that book, but from my 
own reading of it, these are recommendations. 
I don't think that we would expect your com- 
mittees to tie the investigators down to the 
millimeter. 
Thomas F. Imlay, Animals for Research, 
Murray, Utah: The question I would like to 
ask regards shipping, as a dealer, of pre-condi- 
tioned calves intrastate and interstate. Are 
there guidelines for regulations in effect that 
we should use as we have on our dogs and some 
of our other animals? 
Dr. Schwindaman: At the present time, 
Bovines will not be covered at all. 
Questioner (unidentified) : I think our big- 
gest problem is going to come in the field of 
toxocology. How are we going to establish 
procedures avoiding pain? 
Dr. Norman: As a clinician, I've been con- 
cerned about many of the questions that have 
been asked. I'll come back to something Dr. 
La Fai'ge will appreciate. There was a book 
written, I think, in the mid-fifties by Korzibski 
in New York that referred to a science and 
sanity and had to do with semantics. I hope 
Lowell will excuse me for saying this, but NIH 
doesn't exist because we are NIH. We're in a 
position to set up a framework and a mechanism 
for having the "intercourse" involved in this 
and sometimes you have to relax and enjoy the 
event. The important thing is that, at this stage, 
the scientific community has a major respon- 
sibility to define, interpret, and become a re- 
sponsible voice I think that is a real responsibil- 
ity that we're facing. 
