SCHWINDAMAN, CONNOR, MCPHERSON, PIERCE, NORMAN, CASS, PARKER & HARMISON 1291 
Dr. SCHWINDAMAN : I can understand, Mrs. 
Free, why you're confused because many of the 
rest of us are, too. Let me just take a moment 
to read the definition of animal as we have it 
in the Regulations . . . "Animal means any live 
or dead dog, cat, monkey (see PL 91-579 § 84, 
Statute 1561, non-human primate mammal), 
guinea pig, hamster, rabbit, or such other 
warm-blooded animal being used or is intended 
for use for research, testing, experimentation, 
or exhibition purposes or as a pet." There, you 
have the entire content of the term "animal." 
Then we say that the term excludes birds, 
aquatic animals, rats and mice, and horses and 
other farm animals and this is where the confus- 
ion comes in. We say, "such as, but not limited 
to livestock or poultry used or intended for use 
as food or fiber, or livestock or poultry used or 
intended for use for improving animal nutri- 
tion, breeding, management, or production ef- 
ficiency, or for improving the quality of food 
or fiber." It's the clauses after "such as" that 
confuses everyone. I must admit that it con- 
fuses me, but T do have to accede to the attor- 
neys in that the first sentence covers the ani- 
mals, and the purpose for which they will be 
used, while the second sentence excludes ani- 
mals. They feel it excludes farm animals across 
the board. 
Ann Free: It would seem to me that the 
attorneys should take a second look at this be- 
cause it says specifically here that these animals, 
as long as they're used for "food and fiber" and 
actual agricultural farm purposes, are not cov- 
ered. You know as I do that this was put in the 
law because this came through some Agricul- 
ture committees and they didn't want to have 
their toes stepped on. That's the clear intent. 
Dr La Farge and many others are using calves 
and sheep and so on, and they readily admit 
that these farm animals, when they are in the 
laboratory, should fall under the purview of 
this law. So I think it would be a very good idea 
to regroup this. 
Dr. SCHWINDAMAN : When farm animals are 
included as an animal by the Secretary, then 
they will be included under the law. The farm 
animals that are actually under research will 
be included at that time. Again, we had to use 
these clauses because it was in the Act itself and 
it did nothing but really confuse the issue, 
because we placed them in the Regulations. If 
we could have just stopped with the exclusions 
and said "horses and other farm animals," I 
don't think there would have been any confusion 
at the present time. 
Ann Free : Does this mean then when they're 
in research, that they're under the law? 
Dr. SCHWINDAMAN: No, it does not mean 
that when they're in research they're under the 
law at this time. When farm animals are in- 
cluded as an animal, then they will be. 
Ann Free: Well, Dr. Schwindaman, it 
doesn't make a bit of sense. 
Dr. SCHWINDAMAN: I can appreciate your 
feeling on it. 
Dr. La Farge, Boston : I have to rise to that. 
I can't help wonder what Tennessee Williams 
is going to do now with his cats on hot tin roofs. 
I think that one of the problems that you've 
raised is a very realistic one. I think it's a prac- 
tical solution that's been offered, i.e., to limit 
the number of animals until the whole concept 
of the law is started and is carried through long 
enough so that we know what the effect is going 
to be. I don't think the intention of the law is to 
suppress research or to try to make them jumpy 
about whether a inspector is going to walk in 
the middle of a somewhat dubious experiment. 
I think it's rather to try to encourage investiga- 
tors to do what Jack and other members of the 
panel have said and that is to try to conduct 
their research in such a way as to fulfill the best 
principles of investigation whether it be human 
or non-human. 
Good research is conducted along lines that 
are spelled out in medicine by good research 
principles, irrespective of the species. The best 
animal experiments done in this country are 
done from the start to the finish under the prin- 
ciples that guide good thoracic surgery, good 
medical care, or good pharmacology. Now it 
doesn't really take a lot of legislation. I think 
that you're going to have to leave it up to the 
good conscience, at least for the time being, of 
investigators. Apparently you have a very low 
opinion of us to think that we don't deal with 
animals like calves in a manner which befits 
not only their dignity but our own. I have a 
very strong feeling, and I think most investiga- 
