Nov. 23, 1901, 
FOREST AND STREAM. 
419 
Length of Drop at Drop at Length of Pistol or 
Make of Barrels, Weight Comb, Heel, Stock, Straight 
Gun, Inches Libs. Inches. Inches. Inches. Grip. 
Beesom, WE ; Parker 3i T.15 17-16 2^ 141.^ St. 
Bovd,^,\V: L Parker ii T.li ^}4 - 'VK. l*'A St. 
*Bijdd, CW Parker 80 T.15 1% 2 U Pistol 
Colquitt, WH Parker 30 T.t2 l}i 2>i . UU St. 
*Crosby, R C..... .Smith 32 7.16 l*ii i}^: U St 
Dargan. V C Parker 80 3 1% 3 U% Pistol 
Dickey, OR.. Parker aO 7,U IH "iH U St. 
Ellis, EE Parker U 8 \H 2fs U% Pistol 
Etheridge, FC Parker 80 7.6 2^ H >^ P. 
♦Fanning, JS Smith 30 B IVe 2^ 14Ji St. 
Frank, A a Parker 80 7.12 m 2^ 14 St, 
Fulford, E D Remington 80 S 1 7-16 2 U% Both 
^Gilbert, Kred Parker 80 7.14 . 2 Uli Pistol 
Hammond, \V A Parker 82 7.15 ly. iifg 14^;i St 
Harrison. J W..... Parker 28 fi 2i/j 14 Pistol 
*Heikes,KO Various 30 7.11 \H 1% 14 !^ P. 
>iutchings, S Parker 32 T.14 \% 'ly^ 14 i)t. 
rordan, J F Parker s!6 SJi 2 8 14 St. 
Lyons, H J...,, Parker 80 7..U . iU Uyi St. 
McAlpin, GS Parker 7.6 IK m ' U'-'i St. 
McMurchy, H Jimith 30 7.12 1^ 2^ U.W St. 
Malone, J R Parker 30 7.15 1»A 2 1& St. 
"Merrill, R Parker 32 7.14 \-% 25^ 14^8 K f ■ 
♦Marshall, T A.. We bley Scott 32 7.14 1^ S l4!s Pistol 
Money, AW Various 30 b St 
Morrison, J L D. Parker 32 7.U ^ l}i V/s 15 St. 
*ParmeleBFS Parker 82 7.12 IX 2 uy. Pistol 
♦Powers, C M Parker 32 7.15 IJi 2J< li^/^ St. 
Rawson, W C Parker 32 7.15 1^ 2 UJ-s St. 
Rhosds, R S Parker 80 7.) 5 I'/s 2>'8 U}^ Pistol 
Robbins, CE Parker 32 7.11 I'A 2J< P'stol 
Simpson, F Parker 32 7.14 I'A 2>^ ' St, 
Stearns, F Parker 32 7.16 1J6 'i% 16 P, 
*Tripp,EH Parker 80 8 V/i U'4 Sr. 
Tucker, S A. Parker 3J 7.U 1% 2 U • St. 
Upson, DA Parker 26 7 1J^ 2 14'4 14 P. 
Van Gilder, R...,, Parker 27 6.2 Ifg 3>t 143^ St. 
Wagner, Wm...., .Parker 30 7.10 1% 14 Si. 
Williant.son, Dr J E Cashmorc 32 7.8 1^2 2 pisto' 
Wilson, DrFC , Parker 82 7.10 \% 2^ 16 St. 
♦Woodward, Le Roy Parker 30 7.18 IJi 2 14K Pi tol 
*Means member o£ All America team who shot in Great Britain. 
When not otherwise stated, measurements, etc., of all of above guns are strictly trap guns. 
Target of 
Right 
Barrel. 
F.C. 
% Choke 
Choke 
73 Choke 
}i Choke 
F.C. 
F.C. 
FC. 
F.C. 
F.C. 
C 
J^' Choke 
% Choke 
■ps Choke 
fcyl. 
F.C. 
F.C. 
F.C. 
Yi Choke 
F.C. 
% Choke 
t .C. 
F.C. 
% Choke 
F.C. 
F.C. 
F.C. 
% Choke 
% Choke 
F.C. 
F.C. 
ys Cho':e 
F.C. 
F.C. 
F.C. 
Target of 
Left . , . 
Barrel. 
F.C. 
F.C. 
Choke 
F.C. 
F.C. 
F.C. 
F.C. 
F.C. 
F.C. 
F.C. 
F.C. 
F.C. 
F.C. 
F.C. 
Mod. 
F.C. 
F.C- 
Mod. 
F.C. 
F.C. 
F.C. 
F.C. 
F.C. 
F.C. 
Fa Chk 
F.C. 
F.C. 
F.C. 
F.C. 
C, 
C. 
c. 
Cyl. 
F.C, 
F.C. 
F.C. 
Mol. 
F, 
F, 
F. 
F.C, 
F C. 
F.C. 
F.C. 
M0.I. 
P.O. 
F.C. 
F C. 
F.C. 
R4 
Triggei ptlH, 
Lbs. 
L4Ji 
4 
m}i Li 
4 
Rt L5 
Rl 1/. 
4 
m%, Lt 
Rl'i L4 
4 
Rsji 
K8 
R4 
L4 
i 
L % 
L6 
4 
4 
4 
4 
R3Jrf Lt- 
•i% 
4 
R3^- Lt 
• % 
Rsy. Lt 
R8'^ L5 
R8 j^ Li) 
mu Li 
4 
4 
3 
4 
3^ 
5 
Rl Lfi 
R L4 
B3 Lt 
REMARKS. 
For game, 20-bore, Gibs., 28tn. barrtis ~ ._■ 
For game, 20-bore, 61bs., 28in, barrels. 
Stock very full at comb ; gun shoots hif (' 
For game, 20-bore, 61bs., 28in. barrels. -. . _ 
Uses thick pad. Uses 20-bore on gati.>5 
Large 12-boie, and uses No. 10 or No, 11 wads. n Jm"- 
Recommends 32in. barrels. 
■''V.,1, 
Recommends this 20-bore as ideal game gun. ■ 
Used Parker in Europe with great success. 
These are measurements, etc., of his 28-gaugc game giui. 
Is in doubt as to length of barrels. Will try 32in. 
Recommends 71b. 14in. stock. Right, imp, cyl.; left, mod. for 
Prefers heavy-muzzled gun. 
Monte Carlo stock and cheek-piece. .. 
Shoots 20-gau^e at upland game. 
Very extra thick along comb. 1 
Recommends small bore for upland game. 
Uses small bares afield. 
Shooting of this gun caused much iavorable comment in England. 
Recommends 28in., 7^1bs., 12-gauge for field. 
Recommends this 20-bore as ideal game gun. 
Shoots small bores afield. 
game. 
Hugg b 
Johnson 9 
Williams <• *i 
White - 8 
Boyd 5 
Luner t> 
Worthington 8 
Tannette - • - . 8 
Walters 6 
Sisco 7 
Gilliam 8 
Hume • 9 
Hoyt S 
,-ie ...t 5 
Emerson 7 
Haywood ■■ 5 
Plummer 7 
Allen 
Hastings 
Fisher •» 
Wells *> 
Walters •• 
8 13 
t) 10 
10 13 
!) 12 
6 5 
'8 13 
7 12 
9 12 
6 
7 11 10 12 
9 12 8 10 
9 11 10 14 
0 14 5 12 
5 12 0 10 
9 14 7 9 
3 .. 6 .. 
8 12 8 9 
6 12 10 
3 12 12 
13 12 
11 9 
7 .. 
.7 .. 
0 
(! 
10 11 
3 10 10 
14 8 14 7 11 
, 9 
9U 9 9 
7 12 8 11 
5 8 4 .. 
6 .. 4 .. 
12 
10 
13 11 
7 .. 
13 
13 
S 13 
7 .. 
7 9 
8 13 
5 .. 
4 .. 
4 7 
4 
6 12 13 
7 8.. 
"7 '9 12 
I! 10 11 
D. B. 
Mcaswfements, Etc*, of a Few Celebrated Gwns. 
liditor Forest and Stream: 
Thinking it might interest your readers, and perhaps serve as a 
guide to so many beginners (many of whom are desirous of in- 
formation), I beg to submit herewith a table giving measurements, 
weights, etc., of guns now in use by many of our most prominent 
trap shots. . , , ., , 
The writer is but too well aware that two men of identical build 
may use guns with entirely different stocks, and that others of 
very different size, weight, length of arm, etc., may still use 
stocks of verv similar bend and length; but as a general broad 
rule he believes that some good may be derived by studying this 
table, and if for no other reason, submits it as a matter of 
statistics, heretofore unpublislied. 
As an illustration of how men's opinions, or, rather, what habit 
and long-continued usage may do regarding the length of a man's 
gun stock, I need simply point to the fact that Messrs. Crosby, 
Heikes and Dickey have theirs at 14in., while Mr. Fulford's is 
I 
14in.,* theii "Dickey's should, if all men held their guns alike, be 
not over ISin., and Fulford's about 13%in. 
Now, as these men have have gone through the entire gamut of 
length, bend and shape of their gun stocks, and as each one is an 
expert of rare abilit}', it goes to prove that he at least knows what 
.'vuits him best; but it may also happen that, having when a youth 
used a short stock, Crosby, for instance, has not deemed it ad- 
visable to change, and as it is probable Heikes and Dickey have not 
Krown very much in height or length of arm .since they commenced 
shooting, they also have adhered to about the same length as they 
used when beginners. Many of our best shots, when shooting 
targets, use their left barrel exclusively, and in pigeon shooting, 
where both are allowed, use it first and reach forward for right 
t rigger. This method enables one to use a longer stock than when 
habitually shooting the right barrel, and furthermore, it allows of 
a more comfortable hold being had of the grip of the gun, as the 
hand is not stretched out to enable the forefinger to press the 
front trigger. Here again habit rules; but it makes a stock ap- 
pear more crooked if one uses the rear ti-igger. So if a gun is too 
.straight at the bend, the use of this trigger may be an advantage, 
,ind vice versa with too crooked a gun. 
In the matter of weight for a trap gun, the consensus of expert 
opinion places it at say 71bs. lOoz. to just under 81bs., as ex- 
perience has proven that for long-continued shooting, especially 
at flying targets, when from 200 to 300 shots a day are some- 
limes fired, a light gun causes discomfort from its excessive recoil 
when loaded with its most killing loads. Large loads are in 
general use among the best shots; excessive ones seldom if ever. 
A moderate target load for a 7%]b. 12-bore is about 3 to 3%drs. 
of bulk nitro powder and lV4oz. of shot, cases ranging in length 
from 2% to 3in., wadding to vary accordingly. A well wadded 
and properly crimped case holding from 3^ to S^drs. of standard 
bulk nitro powder and II.40Z. of shot will do all that any greater 
load can accomplish when shooting at targets, especially at 16 
to 18yds. rise, and many great records have been made on these 
with less than 3drs. . , 
If however, the shooter can withstand recoil without discom- 
fort,' and the gun malces steady,' even and close patterns when 
using more powder, even up to o^^drs, may be used, but such 
excessive loads, when target shooting, are not to be thought of 
unless the shooter stands at the extreme distance of handicap 
or if using a much heavier gun than 81bs. Even then it is ex- 
tremely doubtiul if any advantage is gained by going over 3i,4drs. 
So much depends on the gun's performance and the shooter's 
ability to shoot continuously without flinching— and really it is 
the writer's firm belief that more men have gone off in their 
shooting from using excessive loads and consequent flinching 
than from all other causes combined. 
To break targets with regularitj^ at long rises— say 21 to 23yds.— 
one must have a very close, even pattern, and furthermore one 
must be able to shoot without the least bobble or trepidation; 
and as heavy, kicking loads are certainly not conducive to steadiness 
in holding or accuracy in shooting, they should be avoided if 
good scores arc to be made. 
When pigeon shooting, the standard charge may be put at 
a%drs., though many use less in the first barrel, and some only 
l%oz. of shot; this to reduce the recoil and increase the speed of 
the load as well as facilitate the placing of the second barrel ■ 
in ease the first one fails to stop the bird. 
Shooting at some of our crack Eastern pigeon clubs is of a 
\ try different order from what one generally gets at tournaments 
or on many grounds where very little of this work is done. At 
Watson's, for instance, in Chicago, one is almost sure to get first- 
1 lass birds, and at the Cincinnati Gun Club they are now doing 
much better than formerly; but at the Westminster Kennel Cluh, 
Carteret, certain days at Riverton, and by the way, at Mr. Norvin 
T. Harris' private grounds on bis glorious Hursthoume Farm in 
Keiiltickv, one is almost sure to get the very best of pigeons- 
birds that fly to the last gasp and that start the very instant the 
trap is opened. Any pigeon ground exposed to the sweep of the 
wiind is apt to be a fast one, especially when there are buildings in 
front of the traps; and better still, if the coops are in that direc- 
tion. At some places, 30 and 40 cents apiece is charged for birds, 
and as they have been kept in very best trim, properly fed— not 
overfed— feathers fresh and clean as those of wild birds, it 
stands to reason they are much faster than birds which have been 
cooped and boxed up, starved, soiled, drooping, and oftentimes 
unable to fly. Therefore, at such good birds and on such fast 
grounds many of our best shots prefer slightly lighter guns, faster 
handling because a heavier one impedes their speed in shooting, 
and after all a cannon ball will not score a pigeon if it misses it. 
So on such grounds guns of about 71bs. 6oz. to 7^41bs. are much 
in vogue. Another thing should also be considered— i. c., the size 
of the boundary, which is generally 50yds., while in some of our 
best clubs it is only 30, everything tending to develop speed in the 
marksmen and militating against heavy, ponderous guns, ho^y- 
cver well they may perform, albeit the shooter himself must be his 
own judge, and ^jxpeiience, after all, is the only infallible tutor. 
Regarding the drop at comb and heel of gun stocks used 
by our best shots there really is not very much difference — not 
nearly so much as one might suppose, judging from the disparity 
in size and build of the men themselves. It is safe to say that 
within %in., either more or less, most of their guns measure 
l%in. at comb and about 2in. at heel. The comb drop is of 
very much greater importance than that at the heel, because the 
gun is guided by the face resting at some point along the stock 
toward the comb, and while the drop at the heel regulates to a 
certain extent the comb drop, yet a slight difference at the heel 
is imperceptible as compared with what the same amount would 
be at the comb. The pitch of the stock, so little heeded by 
many, may mean a great deal, especially with very full chested, 
stout men, or very lean ones. 
Cast-off is another vaguely understood quantity and quality, 
and i'et in many cases men who would otherwise be good shots 
miss and miss and keep on missing and never know the reason, 
and all because they do not look straight down the center of the 
ribs of their guns. 
There are some broad, general ruleSj however, that may, if 
properly applied, be a guide to an intelligent beginner, if he will 
only study out his own case, which means try to discover what 
makes him miss. 
A miizzle-heavy, long-barrel gun should not have a crooked 
stock or much pitch, else it will generally be found to shoot low. 
A very heavy gun at breech with light, thin barrels forward — 
especially short ones — will, unless held very firmly, be found to 
pump at the muzzle upon firing the first barrel, and such guns 
are very difficult to hold in place and are apt to cause frequent 
missing from being hard to control, A long-barrel gun is aligned 
with greater accuracy than a short one, provided it is properly 
balanced and can be easily and steadily brought to place. Such 
gun will generally improve the shooting of most men who ex- 
ercise patience enough to give them a fair and thorough trial at 
all kinds of trapshooting, which, of course, is done in the open. 
When using heavy charges of powder a 32in. barrel gun, if 
proi^erly bored, should shoot a shade steadier than one with only 
28in. barrels; and while the actual difference in this respect may 
be very slight, yet it is all in favor of the longer gun, for one 
can certainly align a long barrel more accurately than a short one. 
Very much depends on the strength of the shooter and the balance 
of the gun. If a badly balanced, heavy forward gun is to be 
used, then, the shorter the barrels the better, because weight 
being at less distance from the left hand the less it will be felt. 
But to assert that such a weapon is equally effective as one of 
greater length and of equal or less weight is not conclusive, be- 
cause the chances of error in alignment are greatly magnified 
with the short barrel. 
The above remarks apply to trap guns exclusively, and a trap 
gun, if not entirely too straight .it the comb, is a first-class duck 
gun of its gauge, also verj' serviceable for open prairie shooting, 
such as grouse late in the season, when one needs long-range 
and greatest killing power. 
Regarding game guns, the two principal requisites are fit and 
lightness. A man may accustom himself to almost any sort of 
gun when trapshooting, now that he is allowed to adjust it to his 
shoulder and assume any position, and, so to speak, fix himself 
to fit his weapon. Nor do a few ounces more or less signify 
where a gun has not to be carried. But let a game bird dart 
into a thicket, or a duck come from behind going 60 to 80 miles 
an hour, and whizz_ overhead unexpectedly, then see how much 
time one has to adjust and arrange one's self in such an emer- 
gency ; and yet these very difficult shots, when made, are the 
ones that stand out as flaming beacons, serving to illumine the 
long tramp home after many a weary mile of travel. 
Small-bore guns are at last beginning to find their place. A 
good 61b. 20-gauge or 16— 8oz. heavier — will serve every purpose 
for all upland shooting, with very I'are exceptions. 
Toward the close of the season, or when large game birds are 
extremely wild, a wider bored gun has advantages, for no small 
charge of shot can possibly do the e-xecution that a larger one 
can, all things being equal, at very long range; nor can a 12- 
gauge equal an 8 in this particular. But for portability of gun' 
and ammunition, as well as _ speed in handling it when very 
quick shooting is imperative, it is extremely doubtful if any gun 
can be found to excel a good 20-gauge, bored and regulated to do 
the work in hand, to say nothing of reduced weight and bulk of 
its compact ammunition, 100 loads of which weigh 31bs. less than 
the same number of average 12-gauge charges. 
Gatjcho. 
WESTERN TEtAPS. 
Hopes for the 'Watson Handicap. 
Chicago, JiJI., -J^ov, 15.— Mr. C. R. Stephens, vice-mcsident of 
the HHnois State Sportsmen's Association, writes from Moline. Ill., 
under date of the 11th inst., that he now expects to be able to 
.idvise, not later than Saturday, Nov, 16, that the trapshooting 
table will be spread full, as-per original schedule; that is to say. 
that the 100 sigTiatures for the big ?100 .sweep will have been 
secured by that time, and that the shoot mav then be considered 
a certainty. It is much to be wished that the big shoot may be 
pulled off a.« planned. 
St, Paul Review Cup, 
Following are the scores for the St. Paul Review cup at Inter- 
city Shooting Park, St. Paul, Minn., Nov. 10: 
Trap score type— Copyright, 1901, by Forest and Stream Pub. Co. 
13148154414441142241186 
Morrison, 29 2 2 * 220222222202121222222 0-21 
62211815521253618585544 
Hirschy, 29 2 2 * 2 2 2 2 2 0 2 1 *2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 0 2 2 2 2—21 
44542514 2 18212 455111511 
Dr Bill, 2i... * *22222201212020101 1 2 1M 1—19 
5 2215258852525 
McKay, 29 2 2 0 2 2 2 2 1 0 1 2 * 2 2 0 * w. 
42532881428542514888412 
Wilkin.son, 28 1 2 22222022222222*222* 1 21 1-22 
Wilkinson won; 
The initial shoot of the season for this cup brought out only a 
small crowd, but the wind blew 25 miles an hour, and the birds 
were good. The cup had been won three times by Minneapolis 
shooters, J. O. Gilfillan winning it twice and French once. The 
last winner, C. H. Wilkinson, is a St. Paul man, which lends 
.addifional interest to the contest. This cup will be shot for every 
-Sunday morning until IMay; if not won bv one shooter three timec 
before then, e. Hough. 
Aodobon Gan Clab, 
Watson's Park, Chicago, Nov. 16.— The day was dark, cloudy and 
cold. The scores made by the Audubon Gun Club members fol- 
low: 
November club event, 15 birds, allowance: 
•P"' . 3. 21111021012210110W 
U e .2'»22*20101w 
V 4 V i'=o'<:. • 1111211222121202 —15 
J H Amberg, 1 .111122211222122 —15 
Leffingwell 211102101122121 —IS 
R B Mack , 111112220*12211 —13 
.1 B Barto 22222122im222 —16 
Sweepstake, 15 birds per man: 
S Wilcox *12210122111111-13 R B Mack ^1122211220*012-11 
Lettmgvvell 2*2012221221121-13 Ravelrigg. 
Gar&eld Gun Qub. 
Chicago, Nov. 16.— The appended scores were made on our grounds 
today by members of the Garfield Gun Club on the occasion of 
the fourth trophy shoot of the series. Dr. Shaw carried off the 
honors of the day and won Class A trophy on a straight score. 
\V. H. Baker won Class B trophy on 10. C. J. Wolff, a Class C 
man, won his trophy on 11 out of 12 birds, of which the troohv 
shoot consists. ' 
The day was a fine one for pigeon shooting, not being too cold 
for comfort, and there being just enough wind to make the birds 
lively. The birds were a good lot, only three sitters developing 
ni the whole afternoon shooting. 
The attendance was not up to our usual standard, only sixteen 
shooters putting in appearance, while we generallv have about 
twenty-five : 
V. '^^r°l?-'^* ..011220101001- 7 022212-5 
K • - • 1022**122022— 8 21*202—4 
^ H Kehl 12122*12*102— 9 '*020U^3 
Meek. 222121*111*1-10 *12112^5 
C J Wolff 012212121212-11 002201-3 
Barnard 010112201202— S 1212*2—5 
1^,^'Jiaw ..221222221222-12 201222-B 
1 \\ Eaton _ 210112021211-10 1*0111—4 
Pollard 11101111*201— 9 
Ed Eaton .102201112111-10 12oi2i-5 
L 02U10121120— 9 .... 
J Wolff . 021110121111-10 110121-5 
W H Baker...... ......211220221011-10 222111—6 
hlannigan 21*002121*00— 6 001210—3 
Stoner 222m-6 
Country HUll-6 
Dr. J. W. Meek. 
Rictunond Gun Club, 
Silver Lake, Staten Island, Nov. 16.— Following are the scores 
made by the shooters who participated Jn the shoot of the Rich- 
mond Gun Club to-day:^ 
Events: 1 23456789 10 
Targets: 15 10 10 10 15 15 15 15 15 IS 
-V .Schover ing 7 7 8 6 12 10 8' 11 
W Schoverlmg !) 1 5 5 6' fi 8 7 8 ') 
Geo Bechtel Xi (5 8 3 10 14 12 Tl S 1"' 
W Ward f. 3 5 3 5 5 9 
A'«f«oti H .. 6 4 9 5 io 
.S Lewis . 4 7 4 7 H . . 
Junker 5 ,. .. 4 '4 "7 " 
r Crystal, 4- 3 „ ^. 5 5 .. V. V. "] 
At A; SCHOVEBJjING, Sec'y, 
