AlTG. 30, 1902,] 
FOREST AND STREAM 
160 
right, of course, and I do not understand how the in- 
version occurred. The Manistee offers the sandy reaches 
•which the grayling specially loves. It certainly ought 
to be made a grayling preserve by the State of Michi- 
gan. 
E, HOUGK. 
Hartford Building, Chicago, 111. 
The Carp. 
Frdni the- Proceeaings of the Aflrerican Fishefies Society for 1901. 
Dr. Baktlett: From a practical standpoint I want to 
say to you that the United States Fish Commission 
builded a great deal wiser than it knew when it intro- 
duced carp in the waters of Illinois. I am here as repre- 
sentative of the United States Fish Commission, and I 
want to say to you that the waters of Illinois have proven 
more acceptable to carp tlian many of the other waters. I 
want to speak of that of which I know. The work of the 
Fish Commission depends entirely of course upon the 
money they have to run their business. It is getting to be 
practically a matter of dollars and cents, this Fish Com- 
mission business, and ought to be in the various States, 
but that is particularly true in Illinois. There is, per- 
haps, no one here that has been a stronger advocate in 
years gone by of protection than myself. I early made up 
my mind that any law the enforcement of which would 
kill a fisherman was next to gospel. I have changed my 
mind as to that considerably and believe now in propaga- 
tion rather than protection. The last Legislature of 
Illinois enacted laws which prohibit the taking of black 
bass, wall-ej'cd pike, etc., except with hook and line dur- 
ing the whole season. The carp on the other hand have 
been subject to a little more of the open season and are 
permitted to be caught more months in the year. I want 
to say to you briefly, however, and without giving you 
any reasons for it, because you all know what my rea- 
sons are, that the carp have produced in the State of 
Illinois more money than all other fish put together. That 
seems like a pretty hard statement to make, but it can 
be verified, and I want to say to A^ou that there are more 
carp eaten on the hotel tables in the State of Illinois than 
any other fish, I have been Served with "red snapper" 
which turned out to be carp. This cry against the carp is 
a great big humhug—it is all outrage— they are a good fish 
if you know how to cook *hen1, but not so good if you 
don't know how. Most of yoli ai'c meli of leisure and like 
your black bass and whitcflsh, but what about the one dol- 
lar and ten cettt a day mail? He, has got to take earf). 
Illinois produced three-quarters of a million o^ dollttfs 
in coarse fish last yean It Would be as much && yotif 
life is worth to take a trip down to the Illinois River 
and tell the men there that cfirp !b not a good thing. 
They would take veil out and duek y. u gracefully into 
the river. More tlmn phe-half the towMs oil the Illinois 
jRiVeP depend mostly for their p.Kisteiide oil the fish in- 
dustry, snti chHsidetfibly over two-thirds of the? fish taken 
ai'e carp. They grow anywhere and everywhere; they 
grow with the blaclc bass, and the black bass are as plenti- 
ful as ever. Illinois can furnish otte-half the black basS 
for strck in the United States, and yet there will be 
no dihiinution in nnnHtity; We take just as nmiiy black 
basS W'lh the hook ahd line this year as ever, while the 
carp are steadily on the increase. I have no patience with 
the newspaper talk that says that the carp are an enemy 
of the game fish. I do not believe anybody can prove it. 
1 would like to hear it if it ie so. 
The earj) in this State are accused of eating up all of 
the water plants— in fact, they have been accused of de- 
stroying the duck hunting in the State of Illinois and 
Indiana; they have been accused of almost every crime 
that fish can be accused of, but I do not believe any one 
can prove that the carp has ever been an enemy of the 
game fish or destroys its young or spawn. That is a 
pretty bold statement to tnake, but we have representa- 
tives here from all over the country, and I would like to 
hear what they have got to say on the subject. I hold the 
position that the United States Government made the 
most practical plant of any of its plants when it planted 
carp in the muddy waters of such States as_ Illinois and 
Indiana. Twenty-five years of experience with people in 
the State of Illinois in the fish business has been up-hill 
work. I took the Commission there when there was not a 
line on the statute books for the protection of fish, and 
I have followed it up until now, and previous to the intro- 
duction of the carp the muddy waters qf' Illinpis were 
almost depleted of coarse fish, and to-day it is shipping to 
the East more and better fish than any other Western 
State. 
Mr. Peabody: I am very glad that Dr. Bartlett, the 
friend of the carp, has introduced the subject, because we 
want to get some information in that line. I have run up 
against a number of very strong statements regarding the 
injury that carp do the fishing and shooting interests of 
Wisconsin. Only a day before this meeting began I 
attended a meeting of the directors of the Diana Shoot- 
ing Club, and some of the directors stated emphatically 
that the carp were ruining our shooting, that they were 
eating up the wild rice and wild celery. One of the 
gentlemen said that the introduction of carp in Lake 
Koshkonong had destroyed the fishing of black bass and 
pike; that they roiled the waters and kept them in 
that state all the time, and that therefore the black bass 
and pike were driven out and did not propagate. I was 
in hopes that Mr. Ravenel would be here, because he has 
been the one defender of the carp at all these meetings, 
and I have always relied on him as to the value of the 
carp. He stated last year that the highest priced fish sold 
in New York during November and December was carp; 
that they came in with the turkey and were considered 
edible and valuable. Now some of the fishculturists here 
undoubtedly can give information that will be of value to 
us in this State especially as to just how much injury 
carp are and do. and if there are any gentlemen here who 
can answer the question, do they destroy the wild celery 
and the wild riee on such marshy ponds as are fre- 
quented by ducks, to the injury of the duck shooting, and 
do they roil the water so as to prevent the propagation of 
such game fish as bass and pike, and do they destroy the 
spawn, and do they go on the spawning beds of the black 
bass and destroy them, the information they give us will 
be very acceptable. Those are questions that I wish might 
he ooened up here and discussed freely, so thj^t those of 
us who are not thoroughly posted on the subject may be- 
come so. 
Mr. Townsend: It may be that the carp has been in- 
troduced in some places where it was not needed, where 
other kinds of fish were more important; it might not 
be advantageous to introduce the carp into the beautiful 
little lakes of Mr. Peabody's State; but there are many 
waters in this country teeming with carp, and people are 
finding out in many places that carp is a food fish. There 
is a market for carp in the big Eastern cities and carp 
will sell there. They sometimes sell even for a higher 
price; generally they sell for a low price and are bought 
by poor people. There are many foreigners in our East- 
ern cities that are steady consumers of carp, and take all 
that come to market. Carp go to market_ generally in 
good shape; they can be packed in ice in Illinois and will 
reach New York alive. If they are properly cooked they 
are very good fish. Now we have in our waters a pretty 
good suoply of coarse fishes. There is a tendency on the 
part of Legislatures to cut off the commercial fisheries, to 
leserve more and more waters for hook and line fishing. 
This harvest of coarse fishes still remains. _ If the crop is 
not harvested it is lost. In the Illinois River they catch 
over 14,000.000 pounds of fish a year, chiefly carp and 
buffalo. That affords employment to 1,000 fishermen, 
who incidentally catch other fishes. It can be shown_ by 
statistics in the Fish Commission office that the yield 
of black bass in this great carp river, the Illinois River, 
has increased along with the carp. They now Catch more 
bass than ever, and the chances are that the young carp 
are food for the bass and the more predatory fishes. 
The work of the net and seine fishermen in the Illinois 
River results in the capture of these coarse fishes, carp, 
buffalo, catfish and dogfish, and the other fishes taken do 
rot count for much. At the same time there are plenty 
of game fishes for those who want them for sport — such 
fishing is better than ever. So there are undoubtedly 
many waters in this country that will support the coarse 
food' fishes and the fine game fishes without the one being 
an injury to the other. That may also be the case in 
Lake Erie, where the carp catch is already important and 
marketable. ' 
The dealers of Sandusky and Port Clinton are ship- 
ping all the earn they can get, not only to the Eastern 
markets, but to St. Louis. Cincinnati and Louisville. 
On the Pacific coast the carp is abused just as much 
as it is elsewhere, and yet the Chinese of California are 
consuming carp and catfish more than any other kind of 
fishes. 
In New Tersey the carp have taken to living in the 
slightly brackish water, and most of the catch comes from 
those wafers which lie between the more salty bay waters 
and the fresh waters. The carp there are in places where 
ihey appear to hurt nothing, and they are beginning to find 
their way to market. If I had a big lake I should not 
hesitate to stock it with carp, and I should expect it to 
pav before very long. ' 
Mr. Clark: Mr. Townsend said that he did not think 
that the fishermen were yet catching many carp in Lake 
Erie, l3Ut last year in Maumee Bay, according to reports. 
c3rp'were being caught by the ton, and I understand from 
Mr. J. N. Dewev that they are establishing there a sys- 
tem of keeping the carp when the market is low and put- 
ting them on the New York and Philadelphia markets 
when nrices are high, also that they are making ponds 
along Maumee Bay and they catch the carp and hold 
them in the ponds until they wish to send them to market. 
Mr. Townsend : It should be 3,000,000 pounds for Lake 
Erie — the figures Avere put too low. 
Mr. Clark: I understand they do not catch so very 
many carp down in the lake along the islands, but the carp 
are there. In Detroit River during the last two years 
but few carp were caught, but it is possible that the carp 
will remain in great numbers in Lake Erie and will stay in 
such places as Maumee and Sandusky bays. They have 
some up about the flats. There is some kicking about the 
The President : I can tell you about the Flats. I go 
up on the boat to the Flats twice a week, and every time 
I come down on the boat I get a damning from some bass 
fisher that claims the carp are destroying the bass fish- 
ing But notwithstanding their claims the bass fishing 
on St. Clair Flats has been better during the last three 
years than ^t any time during fifteen years previous, and 
we have not planted any bass either. I cannot account 
for it in anv other way except that the environments of 
the carp and black bass are absolutely different. Black 
bass likes a clean, pure, sandy bottom, and tiie carp lives 
on a muddy, weedy bottom. I believe that the carp is a 
good thing in many waters where black bass thrive. I 
believe that the bass fishing at the Flats has increased by 
reason of the food that young carp make for the bass, 
though he was not planted there. Millions of them are 
up there and you will see their backs sticking up out of 
the bull rushes. The only injurious thing that I believe 
ihey do is to destroy the food for the perch. Our perch 
fishing is not what it used to be, and the carp living up 
among the weeds and rushes cleans out the weeds at the 
bottom so that there is not as much vegetation there_ for 
food for the perch as there otherwise would be; so it is 
my judgment that the carp has injured our perch fishing 
but improved our bass fishing. 
Mr. Titcomb: We all know that Mr. Bartlett is an 
authority on the carp ; we also have here an authority on 
the bass. The question which I was going to ask and 
which Mr. Peabody did ask, was whether carp destroyed 
the spawn of bass. I say no, but I am not an authority. 
Now in Buffalo there is a strong fish and game associa- 
tion which obtained permission of the New York Fish 
Commission to seine the carp out of the river for the 
alleged reason that they destroyed the spawn of the bass, 
and when I passed through there they asked me to bring 
that question iip at this meeting. Now, I should like to 
hear from Mr. Bartlett in answer to those questions 
which Mr. Peabody fired out so rapidly, he answering 
them as direct questions and as an authority, and I should 
like the views of others who have had experience with 
either the carp or bass, on that question, so that we can 
have a direct record on our minutes of these questions 
which have been asked directly and answered directly, in 
addition to the valuable information which we have been 
getting through the Remarks of Mr, TQ\vnsend and 
vourself, 
The President: Do the carp destroy the spawn of 
black bass? 
Dr. Bartlett: You are placing upon my shoulders 
rather more honor than belongs to me. I am not an 
authority on the carp further than an intimate associa- 
tion with them during a number of years has given me 
the privilege of a good deal of observation. 
Our Illinois River is really a series of lakes from one 
end to the other. The river itself is_ anywhere from 
seven to fifteen miles wide, and there is a considerable 
chain of lakes, or low places, on either side of the river, 
extending the whole length of the river, and making an 
immense body of sluggish water. Interspersed are a 
large number of spring lakes. In order that I might know 
positively what amonnt of injury had been done by the 
introduction of the carp in the waters of the Illinois, I 
took occasion when carp were first brought upon the 
market and the hue and cry raised as to their destructive 
qualities, to open and be present while hundaeds of carps 
were opened, to see if I could find in their stomachs any- 
thing that would indicate that they took the fry of other 
fish or spawn of other fish. I can no^t say that I have 
never found the spawn of other fish in their stomachs, 
but when I have found such spawn it Has been of such a 
nature as led me to believe that it was such spawn as 
floated on the surface of the water, and that the carp 
took them in. in that sucking motion that he has, going 
around on the surface of the water. 
So far as their eating up the growth in the water and 
destroying that is concerned, that is to some extent true, 
but I dp not think that it is extensive enough to drive 
away the black bass from their breeding grounds or in 
any way interfere with them ; and I think, Mr. President, 
you struck the key note exactly when you spoke of the 
increase of bass being due very largely to the immense 
supply of young fish fwr food. My work on the Illinois 
River is of a very peculiar nature, and I say this to show 
you why I gave you the figures that I did. Our work is 
simply saving these fish out of the overflow. There are 
thousands of acres of land planted to corn to-day where 
the land was water a few months ago. and thousands and 
thousands of acres more will dry up before the season is 
over. Into those places we go and take out the young 
fish, and a very careful estimate made after years of in- 
vestigation, shows that not over fifteen per cent, of fine 
fish are taken out of those places under natural con- 
ditions. That is, go into a place that is not disturbed and 
eighty-five per cent, of the fish will be the coarser varieties 
and fifteen per cent, perhaps of the gamey varieties of 
fish, and not over one per cent, of black bass. When 
we take into consideration the fact that is so well known 
of the voracious habits of the black bass, it shows an all- 
wise provision of nature to supply a very large quantity 
of coarse fish to feed the other fishes, and I believe as 
firmly as I am standing here that if the carp had not been 
introduced in the State of Illinois, the buffalo having 
become almost extinct in our waters, although it was 
once the great commercial fish that the bass would have 
been gradually taken out entirely from the list. As it is 
now, 1 want to repeat the statement that we have more 
black bass than ever, and our carp certainly have in- 
creased in a greater ratio than ever before. ^ - 
Mr. Townsend: The figures prove that you have more 
black bass than you ever had. 
Dr. Bartlett: Yes, sir. In our work for the United 
States Fish Commission we took this year from Barlow 
Lake, which would cover perhaps a mile in length and 
five hundred feet to a quarter of a mile in width, low and 
shallow, 51,000 black bass for distribution. Now that is 
in a mud hole, and there is no estimate as to the amount 
of carp that were removed at the same time and put into 
the rivers — thev have been simply beyond computation. 
As I said before, I have worked faithfully for carp all 
these years. For the first few years, fishermen would 
take the carp, open them up and dress them for sale the 
same as buffalo, and I had free access to the stomachs of 
the carp and failed to find to any considerable extent 
evidences that the carp has interfered with the spawn 
of other fishes. That is true at least for the muddy 
waters of Illinois that abound with plenty of other food 
for the carp. What might be the result in some of your 
cold water lakes in Wisconsin I can not say. The carp 
have a very peculiar value in that it is not necessary to 
dress them for shipment. The buffalo fish you might ice 
down as carefully as possible and within a very few hours 
he becomes soft, and therefore you have to dress the 
fish before shipment, and I believe about two-fifths is 
allowed for dressing. But the carp is shipped so to 
speak, with guts, feathers and all; he is taken right out 
of the water, covered with ice and frequently shows signs 
of life after being in a refrigerator car forty-eight to 
sixty hours, and e\'ery pound that is taken from the 
water by the fisherman is utilized to bring back so much 
per pound from the market. 
It is only justice, however, to state that these carp are 
used in the East by a class of people who will not eat 
anything unless it is pretty nearly alive — Russian Jews, 
Poles, etc. 
If there is any direct question that I can answer from 
personal observation I shall be very glad to do it. 
Mr. Peabody : What do you know about the roiling of 
the water? 
Dr. Bartlett: At certain seasons of the year they do 
make the water very roily. But we are to consider that 
our black bass are taken from waters that frequently have 
six or seven inches of mud at the bottom, and so it 
makes no difference. 
Mr. Peabody: You do not think that that is im- 
portant? 
Dr. Bartlett: Yes, sir. There are a great many 
places in Illinois where the introduction of carp has 
proved a disadvantage. I know that to be a fact, in 
small spring lakes, take a lake of four or five acres, some- 
thing of that kind. 
Mr. Peabody: You would not think that a lake of one 
to three miles in size would be affected at all? 
Dr. Bartlett : No, sir. My observation has been that 
the very best fly-fishing in the LTnited States dfen be had 
upon the Illinois River to-day. 
Mr. Titcomb: Is it not a base slander upon the bass 
to intimate tlxat it would allow a carp to touch its spawn? 
Dr. Bartlett: I should thmk so. 
Mr. Bovi^.R; I think that where hss^ ^iii4 Q*rp inhabit 
