170 
fdhjeBT and stream. 
f Aug. ^0, i$02. 
the same water it is natural tlrat fhe bass should incS-ease. 
We have been hatching black bass for a mtmber of sea- 
sons in ponds where we have an opporfQility to obsen^e 
their spawning operations from the time the male fish 
begins to prepare the bed until a good man}- days after 
the hatching is completed, and we know that the male 
bass guards the bed against all intruders. He will put vCp 
the stiffest kind of a fight against any animal that ap- 
proaches the bed with a view of preyiiTg upon the 5pa\Vn. 
There is no danger of a carp ever looting tile spawn from 
a black bass bed. On the other hand I do liot think the 
carp can retaliate against the basS ii"i ally way, shape or 
form. While the bass is preying on the carp, ihe carp 
can not come back at tlieili in any way. lii otlier words, 
in the interchange of hostilities between the two species, 
the bass gets the better of it at every stage of the pro- 
ceedings, and I think it is a perfectly natural result that 
the bass should increase in waters where there is an abun- 
dance of carp. 
Mr. Peabody: I would like to have Mr. Lyde'lfs 
opinion on this subject. 
Mr. Lydell: I never have known but a single instance 
v/here the carp has destroyed the .spawn of the black 
bass, and I never knew of their destroying aily oVhfei- 
spawn. I have handled and opened what few cMjp Avere 
caught at the Detroit River, Belle , isle. Fisheries, dur- 
ing the last ten j'ears, but never found any spawn in 
them. 
Every one here seems to be friendly to^vard the car^i, 
but a gentleman a while ago said be did not know hoAV to 
cook them. I think it would be a good idea tOf this So- 
ciety to educate the people how to cot'k these carp. The 
c^nly experience I have ever had in cooking carp 1 got 
from a German friend of mine at Mill Creek. He was a 
saloon keeper and had been at nle fov- a number of years 
to get him some carp. Last spring I procured him two 
that weighed about four pounds apiece. They were 
cooked by his wife and 1 Was invited down to dinner. I 
enjoyed the carp very much and I asked him how' he 
cooked them. He said they were stutTed with sauerkraut 
and boiled in beer. (Great laughter.) 
Mr. Townsend : Just another point iii this connection 
that may save discussion: We hear a great vll'eal from 
sportsmen's clubs and from other sources iis to how the 
carp can be exterminated.' It can s\ut be exterminated. 
It is like the English sparrow, it is here to stay. At a 
meeting of the American Ornithologists' Union a while 
ago, one of our foremost ornithologists stated thai the 
European sparrov.'- could not be exfertninated in this 
country. I think it is the same with the carp. It is 
here to stay, and we can not ■exterminate it any tyiore than 
we can exterminate the green grass of the fields. I do 
not wish to pose as an advocate oi the carp— 1 pf-efef 
other fish for myself— but I maintain that the carp has 
a place in good and regular standing ivi oUr big Eastern 
markets, and I do not think that 'our great republic with 
Its rapidly increasing populatiDrt can aiiford to sneer at 
even so cheap a .source of food. 
Dr. Parker: 1 wish to say just a. little bit in regard 
to this matter. The carp is the most omnivorous of all 
fishes. He is a hog and will eat everything. He will eat 
spawn if he gets it, but I do not thil\k he will search it 
out. I believe, as the President here has said, that the 
black bass will increase as a result of ihe presence of the 
carp, but we will see a depletion of the perch. As I said 
in my paper, you must go back to the vegetable for the 
rehabilitation of waters. If you destroy vegetation and 
the larvae, you destroy the minnows, and the perch have 
no mmnows to feed on, unless thev can eat the young 
of the carp, which they do not appear to do. but thr 
black bass will eat the young of the carp and will thrive. 
Therefore you may look for an increase of the black- 
bass, a decrease of the minnows, and also of those fish that 
feed upon the smaller minnows. I shall look for that 
m the balance of life that would natnrallv occur in a 
stream like the one described. That the carp do make 
the water roily goes without question. The old German 
(Hessel) who brought the first carp to this country told 
me in Washington that a clear carp pond would be an 
anomaly. They stir up the mud at the bottom of the 
stream, and live on the larval and vegetable life they find 
there. I believe then that the black bass will certainly 
increase with the carp unless the carp gets so numerous 
as to feed on the bass beds. Of course with a carp weigh 
mg twelve or fifteen pounds, an ordinai-y black bass 
weighing four or five pounds will not have much show 
Mr. Clark : Yes, he would. 
Dr. P arker : He might whack away at him — they are 
not a very scary fish. I think that the carp has got more 
brams m his head than any other fish lhat swims. When 
u ^'^^ commission over at Glcnwood where they 
had the beds I tried time and again watching the carp 
that would be feeding on the edge of the pond there, bv 
starting the slash-board, and every one of them would put 
right for the center of the stream, knowing at once where 
they were safe. I experimented a good deal with them 
and they are certainly the most wily fish I ever met. 
4.J^u- I jiist want to make a statement about 
the bass, because this talk will be read not only with in- 
terest by absent members, but by sportsmen everywhere 
ihe Doctor intimated that a bass would not keep a twelve 
or fifteen pound carp off from the spawning bed. I want 
to make the statement, and if I am not correct, I want to 
be corrected here, that the bass uses his dorsal fin as a 
weapon of attack and defense, and when a tw-o or three 
pound bass runs his dorsal fin against a fifteen or twenty 
pound carp, Mr. Carp will move off, if he is not dead 
GENER.4L Bryant : I wish to make a friend of some 
of these friends of the carp, and get them to tell me their 
methods of catching, sliipping and cooking him, and I 
would suggest that a paper be prepared next year upon 
that subject, rhe greatest trouble wc have in some of 
our lakes m Wisconsin is that the carp have got in there 
1 do not know of a fisherman in Wisconsin that would 
catch one if he could, and I never heard of one being 
eaten either by anybody in the circle of my acquaintance 
They were originally put into the muddy ponds but in 
the high water they washed into the streams and have 
found their way into our lakes and are there by millions 
They occupy the shallow sedge and muddy bottomed por- 
tions of the lakes, and I h£ive often Avished that some- 
body that knew how would start a method qi catching 
fhem and ghipping them, because I have hear'd so much 
said about it, and I always belieVe what th'e Illinois j^eti>t)fe 
say about the carp, Sn^ t do Jnot iiiiest!(5^ft their veracity 
or their judgment at. all, byt tffe people in our sectiop of 
the country are not.pvivteaidd up to the idea pf appreciiti^Jg 
the . gospel ntCgrding to St. Bartlptt (ap'plause and 
laughM-)' a'nd other disciples aild br^lhren of that faith. 
I ttl'n not questioning the. tnith of the gospel, but I am 
lamenting. that it is \vot spread in our section. Within a 
radius of^five miles of Madison there arc bihiofis of tMp-, 
Everj- fisnerman sees them, curses them, and iteftts'|i.t'& 
dsitcn them. They seem to thrive thef<e ih tJVe tlfeat Wisr 
cousin lake waters. There a^* m%.\\S: 6priiigs,in part ok 
these lakes, there are ba^s. ^yhe■rfe tlip bksh hatch aEd fir'dr 
pagate and little img^ SiWets, .ifn^eiitatiofts, b^ys, and 
sloughs, Of whatever you:inay e^W ,\;Aem, where the sedge 
growSs mul vegetation s;pri\'igs u.p Uirongh the water, ahd 
■ there the carp mii to be found in vast n\ultituyes. Of 
(.purse thiey can not lie seined out from that kind of water. 
Now. what is the best .wavy Iti catch them under such 
conditioiis in large ^nough quantities to ship? When you 
get then.1, what Is the best way of cooking them? You 
tell Vis 'tli'ey are served in the restaurants in, Ne\\' York 
a? a luxury, how can they be made sQ? ,If yoii ca'h con- 
vince our brewers that to boi.l the'm it] beer is the true 
way to prepare theffi, W'c will certainly have a strong 
auxiliary right hand to help 'lis. (Applause.) 
Dr. BARTtETT: While 1 am a strong advocate of the 
Carf) a.nd their increase and value and all of that, yet a 
note of warni'lVg ought to be sounded in every .State, of 
the UiViou as to legislation on the subject of td.tp, aftd it 
should be of such a nature as ^to keep them down, tf 
the people of the State of Illinois, ha^ had tfteit Wa^ two 
years ago, the Illinois Ri.ver and all th'e WAters of the 
State would have been so full of cMp iis to. have crowcjed 
out all of the other §:{Vtt\ife!t"' varieties .of .fish. Carp in- 
crease so rapidly that legislation ih all Suites Siight to 
be had to allo\y th.em to take these eoSl'se ifish. We have 
thrown open the State of tlliftois to the seining of these 
coarser fish-, . ■ 
.To ai'isWfelr my friend's query as to cooking them^ per- 
ir\it me to say that a carp taken out of the vety iriUddiest 
of water, killed and bled as. soo» as. taken out, laid ih 
salt water ovei- night pttVboiled and baked with t3ro^er 
sauce, can not bte di-stiiiguished from th'e finest red 
snappcf:. 
Dil. Pari-cer:. Anothei' hiode of preparation of, carp is 
by smoking, and cUring them, 3s is done with hiihbut ahd 
sturgeoii. A gentleman who had eateh them said to me 
he liked them better J:huh halibut, though not quite so 
v, ell as sturgeo.h, Which he considered the finest smoked 
fish in the World, 
Mr, Dunlap:- In the line of General Bryant's sug- 
gestion, I would like to move that Dr. B^rtlett bfe ir6- 
quested to prepare a paper on the . subject of carp, cover- 
ing the subject as fully as pd'S.sible, tb be read at th^ 
meeting of the. Society a. yeki" from now, and I would 
say that the' "t^lsb Coitlriiissipn would be very glad to 
publish that jpelpfr ih the bulletin, as we all know thete 
is very little literature on that sub jeCt ;. and t thijdk from 
wlYeA we have heard that Dr. Bat-tl'ett is prepared to dis^ 
cuss the subject in all its phases. 
(An.inqui.ry was made as to the value of the carp as a 
game fish, that is as to there being any sport in getting 
him with hook and line.) 
The President : Yes. If you can get him, it is great 
sport. But the only way to do it is to take a piece of 
potato or dough and sink it to the bottom, and when you 
have got him on your hook there is no fish in the world 
equal to him for sport. 
Dr. Parker: A kernel of corn will do very well for 
bait. 
Dr. Baktlett: A man who has been many years in 
my employ tells me that the best bait for a carp is a 
dough ball incorporated with cotton to make it firm, and 
that a potato fried, but not too crisply, is the next best 
bait. I have seen three hundred and fifty people fishing 
at one time for carp with hook and line. These fish make 
a big fight because you cannot drown them. 
Mr. Townsend: I brought with me a bundle of 
statistical sheets of the Mississippi region and the Great 
Lakes region, and if any members want them, they can 
have them. 
JMr. Titcomb : I wish to suggest some topics for con- 
sideration at our next meeting. We get our calls for 
these meetings a short time beforehand and arc busy and 
do not think just what we want to talk about. Now, on 
a recent trip I met a friend who Joined the Society at 
this meeting, Mr. Parker, of the Province of Quebec, and 
we traveled over thirty lakes in a canoe and caught trout 
in every one of them. One of those lakes was eight 
miles long and just teeming with trout. There seemed 
to be an abundance of food and the conditions were just 
the same as in the other lakes, and yet none of those 
trout that we caught there Avonld Aveigh over one-third of 
a pound, and the average would be about a fourth of a 
pound. The next lake might give you trout Avhich would 
aA-eragc a pound, some of them going as high as four 
pounds. Passing on to another lake you would get trout 
the average of Avhich as taken with the fly Avonld be half 
a pound, and another lake three-quarters. You could 
l)ass on' to the last lake and pick up trout at every cast in 
six to ten inches of Avater with the waves a foot high, so 
that the fish wonld jump right out of the Avater and 
land on the sand if thiey did not happen to catch your 
fl.v. and the fish would run about three to a pound. Noav 
the question Avhich I haVe raised and put in the form of 
a topic is given here this Avay : 
"Given the same kind of water, food, etc., the same 
environment so far as appfears from a superficial examina- 
tion, Avhy such a great variation in the growth and 
average size of adult trout in various lakes?" 
There is one other question Avhicb comes up A'ery often 
and wlnich T think has never been ansyvered, and I Avould 
like to see a paper on it if any one has an opportunity 
to study into the subject, namely : 
"The cause of variation in color of flesh of speckled 
trout from any given body of A\^ter." 
Of course the general variation relates to difBerejit 
bodies of water, but frequently you can take fish ri^t 
out of the same pool, or Avithout moving your boat from 
a certain spot, Avhich have a distimctly white meat, a lie ht 
pink meat, and a rich salmon colored flesh. The gene^ral 
answer prdinsrily given to that questipn is "food and 
environment,"- bu't it floes ^^xyt answer th^ question when 
you cj\ri take th^sfe fish Avith three colors of flesh out of a 
space ten feet in diameter. 
Mr. Peabody: Mr. Lydell is a specialist in bass euh 
ture and I have had the question asked ffi'e ahd the 
-statement made boldly that the ISi'ie-'rjtouthed bass ;ca,s'i: 
their spawn iil tht- We,eds ihd Against the Aveeds,, ahd,do 
tlot Itlak'e a. he'd likfe the ..srailbn^outhe'd bass; ,ahd i.^that 
cju'estioh can tie ahsW'erea. 'a'utliorit'ativel-y, I thihk . it 
would bfe )i ^s'Qntpe Oi satisfactioh to a great rnah-y ^ho 
are interesteu in bass culture and in bass fishing, , , 
Mr. LvbELL: This last, season oijr j big-moulh MsS 
spawned, on several differeW. kih'ds 61 beds, but in ho 
instance ha.A'e I k!io\V't\ them . to spaAvn without first clean- 
ing fiAVay the Vegetation and getting toi the roots of the 
Weeds. Some of their eggs were found on the weeds ad- 
joining the beds cleaned off. This year they also spawned 
on prepared gravel beds, and on. other artificial beds hav- 
ing various materials o!l th'e surface and imbedded in the 
cement mixtUffe of Avhich the beds were made, such as 
Spartish ihoss, cocoanut shreds, sea grass and excelsior. 
The President: But Avhere is the natural spawning 
bed of the wild big- mouthed bass? 
Mr. Lydell : It seems to be on roots of the difleretit: 
Aveeds that groAv in the lakes around the shores. The-, 
bass there also .spaAvncd on roots ahd bark that wfete ih 
the bottom, of the i^oud, aud also oh, lily fodts ih ths^ 
olid that is prepared at that station fof large-nlouthed 
ass; Irhis pond had.beeh.sfet oUt to poiid lilies, and they 
cleaned thfe roots bff Uii.der the lilies and spawned oii 
theffi. -Sb t say 1. think the large-mouthed bass will 
spaAvii oh most ahythihg, but they prefeir thi; grass fOots. 
Whitefish on the' Fly. 
Editor Forest and Stream: 
Mr. Chambers' comment.s on the subject of catchint? 
ivhitefish (Co^-t'^'OiiW^ itlbus) ou the fly ih. EbftE^f AKd 
STRaAN;t for AUg. ^.j indicHte that those pf up \vho arc 
fond of th,e sjport h?lve, iibt written e;iough about it. j 
ever tliiuk bf ^olhg into, a Avhitefisli Country Avithout 
laVliig a lot of flies for this particulai- sort Of fishing, 
and it is no trouble at all to teach a tractable rnan hpA^' 
the thing is done. The only diffiHuIty is in finding- thh 
ti actable jilaii. Tile Wfly td ^et Whitefish is to go out in 
the iholHiihg or evening Avhen the school of back fins is 
rippling the Avater in quiet bays, and the fish are "on the 
feed." Put about six No. 14 flies on the leader; no mat- 
ter Avhat color or form of fly, so long as the number is 
14. Cast the collection among the circling; lins, , and riH 
not iuo\'c the cast. Lbt It sink fbt ii lliile beibw ill*' 
surface il heteSSahy, bul ketp it still, When the cast is 
teaily near the bottom, draw it back gently and make au- 
bthcr Cast; , , 
I have often, had two or three whitefish on dt but; 
time and oF an aggtegate -vVelght that nb troUt tba AVoUld 
stahd, txteplih^ iot the fact that all two or three of the 
fish iislialiy get off promptly. • It is almost impossible for 
the average angler to resist the temptation to move 
his cast, and to evolve out of his inner consciousness 
a kind of Avhitefish that likes to chase after a fly. I 
have even found it difficult to persuade a fisherman in 
my OAvn canoe to do tlie thing right, even when the fish 
were after my flies like ducks after a panful of corn. I 
bought a lot of No. 14 flies yesterday, and at about the 
time that this is being read there Avill be some fat white- 
fish sizzling over the camp fire. 
Air. Hough kindly gave liie, the names of some guides 
in the muskellunge country in Wisconsin, and Avhen 1 
wrote to them they asked me to come right on, and said 
that they had comfortable houses, good roads, and tele- 
phones. I shied at that Avorse than a colt at sight of an 
automobile, and planned a trip from northern Minne- 
sota into Manitoba, and out at Rat Portage, Avhere 1 
can get wet and cold and hungry, and not hear anything 
like a telephone nearer than the howl of a wolf at night 
Robert T, Morris. 
New York, Aug. 2], 
The Grayling: of the Manistee. 
SAfUNAW, Mich., Aug. 22. — Editor Forest and Stream: 
In Mr. Hough's article in your issue of Aug. 23, headed 
"Successful Grayling Trip in Michigan," he is made to 
say as folloAvs in speaking of the Manistee River : "This 
stream is not so much a grayling stream as a trout 
stream." I am sure my friend Hough did not mean to 
say this, and Avhat he did intend to say, and Avhat he 
knows as well as I do, is that the upper portion of the 
Manistee is not a natural trout stream, but is good 
grayling water. It never Avill be a good trout stream, 
but grayling can be kept in it indefinitely, with proper 
protection. Nearly all of the Southern Peninsula streams 
Avere originally grayling streams, and the trout are arti- 
ficial. ' Many of the streams, hoAvever, w'ere just as good 
for trout as for grayling as far as the nature has gone in 
building the stream. But it is different Avith the Manistee 
River, the upper portion of it, at least. It lacks those 
deep, dark holes that trout love so Avell, and abounds in 
sunny shalloAvs with a shifting sand bottom that old-timt 
grayling anglers know so Avell. 
It is to be hoped that public sentiment will be sufii- 
ciently strong to get the Michigan Legislature to get out 
of its narrow rut of indifference and really improve the 
opportunity to do a decent thing for once ; that is, proteci 
Michigan grayling in the Manistee River in a practical, 
.scientific and thorough manner. 
W. B. Mershon. 
Camps' of the Kingfishets. 
Camp Hickman, Glen Lake, Leelanau County, Mich., 
'Aug. ip, — Editor Forest and Stream: We had a very 
pleasant camp at this place last siunmer, and hoped tu 
repeat it this season, but a shadoAv, deep and dreary, has 
settled over us, for Old Hickory, my long-time com- 
panion in many delightful outings, Avas taken seriously ill 
last Saturday, and left us this morning Avith Dr. Wise- 
man in charge, for his home in Cincinnati. We all hope 
for the best, but the head of the old Kingfisher is 
Avhitened Avith the snoAvs of many Avinters, and it may 
Avell be that this shall prove the last "camp of the King- 
fishers," .Sorrowfully. KEWfir 
