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DR. FREDRICKSON: I think before we began this exchange, and a very 
useful exchange it has been, we were going to have Dr. Tooze . Shall we 
still proceed in that line, and Dr. Rowe, if you would just remain close by, 
because we are still in this area of what is it we know, what are the facts, 
what are the different attitudes if we don't know the facts about the use 
of viruses as hosts and vectors, or as sources of recombinant DNA. 
Dr. Tooze. 
DR. TOOZE: I think I would like to begin by saying two things. First 
of all, at least on our side of the Atlantic we still believe we are talking 
about conjectural hazards and no proven hazards. We still think we are talk 
ing about guidelines and not laws. That colors the whole tone of the discus 
sion and of course changes the complexion to what you have here. 
DR. FREDRICKSON: Dr. Tooze, I forgot to warn you. Can you summarize 
in about five minutes? 
DR. TOOZE: Yes, surely. 
DR. FREDRICKSON: Very good. 
DR. TOOZE: Our feeling also is that if you want a set of guidelines 
and you want people to follow them, unless you are going to have draconian 
enforcement procedures, they have to command the respect of the people who 
are supposed to be obeying them. I don't believe that you convince anybody 
that if you clone 100 base pairs of the coat gene of adeno, you should do 
this under a P3+EK2 system, after you have purified and gone through all 
the whole business. That is a standard they simply will not obey because 
they believe it is unreasonable, and it is unreasonable. It is totally 
unreasonable to classify all viruses of birds and mammals in one large 
group. You are talking about lassa fever and Ebola virus, and minute virus 
of mice, which is a single-stranded virus, like (J>X174. To put a single 
blanket classification on all those experiments at a stringent level is 
asking for the guidelines simply to be ignored. 
We believe that in all countries, America and all the European coun- 
tries, the discussion of containment of viruses has been skipped over. It 
reflects the composition of the committees who have been drawing up the 
guidelines, chiefly. Certainly in the " Williams Report ," there is a blatant 
error in their statement on viruses, which they have acknowledged. 
I believe you have to take viruses one by one, class by class, and de- 
cide what sort of agent it is, what its host range is, what its virulence 
is, what its pathogenicity is, and then come up with some conditions for 
it. To make these blanket classifications is, in my opinion, scientific 
nonsense. That is, using viruses as a source of DNA. 
The other problem is that if you--let us turn now to polyoma and SV40 
as a vector. Every time you infect the cell at a high multiplicity with 
polyoma, and it is a mouse cell, it will recombine with some of the host 
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