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plasmid is; and if we explicitly intend that to be elevated, let us have 
that on paper, all right? 
DR. FREDRICKSON: Dr. Gottesman. 
DR. GOTTESMAN: Maybe it is worth pointing out that I think the reason 
this category ends up looking like it is raised is that it falls in a crack 
in the revision. That is, in the old Guidelines it is an exchanger under 
the pathogenic label, and therefore it is P2+EK2, but since we are proposing 
a new definition in which non-novel DNA is not covered at all, we have elim- 
inated that whole set of things, all the exchangers, and now we are dealing 
with nonexchangers which started off at a high level, and things which might 
not fall on the list of non-novel automatically now become nonexchangers. I 
am not sure that was our intention. 
DR. CHILTON: I certainly agree that we fell in a crack, and it is a 
pretty uncomfortable crack, because we are somewhere between being complete- 
ly outside the Guidelines on the benchtop, or being P3+EK2, and I find this 
a ludicrous situation. I think we belong in P2+EK2, or possibly P2+EK1. 
That is my feeling about this. I feel that the containment should not be 
raised for the experiment; I see no justification for it. 
DR. FREDRICKSON: We do get your point. 
(Laughter . ) 
I didn't mean to be facetious, because I was about to ask Dr. Gottesman 
about this. I knew that she was herself somewhere at the interface on this 
question . 
Dr . Rowe . 
DR. ROWE: Just back to the question of the DNA handling, certainly the 
intent here was not to use phenol. When we used the word inactivated, it 
means breaking covalent bonds in the DNA. We probably should sharpen up 
those words. 
The other thing is I am not sure you are correct about the autoclaving. 
I know Paul Berg reported data with SV40 that autoclaving labeled SV40 DNA 
broke it into very small nucleotides. 
DR. CHILTON: I believe there was an experiment with bacillus transform- 
ing DNA a long time ago that showed that it did survive. 
DR. FREDRICKSON: We have one more invited witness on this section, Dr. 
Bernard Davis. Dr. Davis, are you still here and interested in speaking? 
SPEAKER: He is on the telephone. 
DR. FREDRICKSON: He is on the telephone, well — 
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