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DR. WRIGHT: Oh, I see. 
DR. TOOZE : So what I am saying now is that guidelines in the United 
Kingdom are voluntary, as is stated in the Williams Report . When a regula- 
tion is issued by the Ministry of Health and Safety, then they will perhaps 
become under the scope of that Act. And that, as far as recombinant DNA is 
concerned, will not go into force and will have no legal force until October 
of 1978. So you should carry that in the record. 
DR. WRIGHT: I think that is a somewhat insubstantial distinction, be- 
cause all of the civil servants who I talked with in Britain during my year 
there said that they were acting as if that law was already in force. 
DR. TOOZE: The question of whether a law is in force is a simply de- 
fined legal question. Either it is in force or it is not in force. 
DR. WRIGHT: Right, but it is certainly coming into force in October. 
MR. HUTT: Weil, certainly I find it very useful to know that there will 
be one. That is, I think, of some relevance. That was ray only question. 
DR. FREDRICKSON: Thank you. 
Dr. Wright, it is very late in the evening, but I can't resist asking you 
a question. While you were in Britain did you ever attend a meeting of the 
Genetic Manipulation Advisory Group? 
DR. WRIGHT: Dr. Fredrickson, I think you know that that is a loaded 
question? Have you heard of the British Official Secrets Act? 
DR. FREDRICKSON: Those meetings are closed to the public. 
DR. WRIGHT: It covers virtually everything. 
DR. FREDRICKSON: Thank you for making me feel better. 
Finally, Ms. Simring, you have five minutes. 
MS. SIMRING: You had asked me before to delay some of the questions I 
wished to address to Dr. Tooze , and perhaps one other. I hope that that won't 
be subtracted from my five minutes. 
Dr. Tooze, I must say that I was distressed by the hyperbolic adjectives 
and other types of words that you used, because the question I wish to pose 
to you is, When you say "nonsense," "I am convinced," "absolutely adequately 
safe," how can you reconcile that with scientific objectivity, philosophy 
and the procedures of investigation? 
Also, I wish to ask you, you said the scientists will not follow the 
Guidelines if they are too stringent. This troubles me very deeply. Do you 
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