205 
DR. SHAW: It comes up time and time again that all of these technologies 
are subject to abuse, and I am certain that we are aware of it. But one thing 
that has not been addressed at this meeting has been the benefits or the uses, 
whether we have any more concrete understanding or prediction as to what 
beneficial effects may come from recombinant DNA research. We heard about 
dripping insulin out of plants as maple sugar drips out, and this sort of 
thing, but there was more talk about that a year and a half ago than there is 
now, and I wonder if scientists are not addressing the issue of applications 
of recombinant DNA. 
DR. SUZUKI: I think something that scientists are pretty reluctant to 
admit is that the two primary users of science today are the military and 
industry. These two groups are concerned with profit and power, and I don't 
again mean to imply any kind of evil intent on the part of either of these 
groups, but I think so long as profit and power are the primary motivations, 
then the people who are going to end up using them, or being affected by them, 
the general public, are not going to really come into the consideration unless 
they have some input into the whole process. 
DR. FREDRICKSON: Dr. Gustafson. 
DR. GUSTAFSON: I have a comment not to Dr. Suzuki, but picking up on 
Margery Shaw. This is a non-mathematician's curiosity about probabilities. 
If one does probabilities on risks, can one also do probabilities on bene- 
fits? And if we operate in a procedure on that side in terms of our suspi- 
cion, ought we not to operate the same procedure in terms of prospects, so 
that we get a fairer picture of the use of probabilities in these sorts of 
things? That is a purely non-mathme t ic ian ' s imagination working, but I don't 
see why it wouldn't work, and in fairness we ought to do it on one side if we 
do it on the other. 
DR. FREDRICKSON: The public process seems to be more applicable to 
pessimism than to optimism for some peculiar reason. 
I am going to proceed now, and I must remind the remaining witnesses 
that it was a pleasure to give Dr. Suzuki who has come so far and who was 
ill, a little more time than we usually allot, but we will go back to the 
rigorous time schedule. 
I am going to call now on Mr. Sheldon Samuels who is a member of the 
staff subcommittee on Recombinant DNA Research of the Industrial Union 
Department of the AFL-CIO. Mr. Samuels. 
MR. SAMUELS: Thank you very much, Dr. Fredrickson, Dr. McCarthy, 
Dr. Finklea. I have to correct my title. I am Director of Health, Safety 
and Environment for the Industrial Unions, but I am here in the capacity of 
the chairman of our subcommittee in the AFL-CIO, cochaired by Dr. Chamot, 
who will follow me on this issue. 
[ 409 ] 
