207 
Now, I am going to summarize in 30 seconds by simply saying that this 
is not a research problem, and we must face the unpleasantness that is related 
to any activity with great economic impact, and that unpleasantness is the 
possibility and — in fact, given the amounts of monies that will be involved — 
the almost probability that there will be conscious criminality involved, and 
therefore some kind of police action needs now to be planned for. 
The final point has to do with research done abroad. We fully expect 
that havens, unregulated havens, will be created for this technology as it 
has been for others. The policy of our department in the AFL-CIO is that this 
country, in the face of that kind of threat, must take unilateral and multi- 
lateral international economic and political action. 
Thank you. 
DR. FREDRICKSON: Thank you, Mr. Samuels. 
Are there questions or comments from the Committee? You may wish to 
wait until Dr. Chamot, who is also from the AFL-CIO, speaks, and perhaps 
you can query them together. 
The next witness is Dr. Dennis Chamot, who is from the Department for 
Professional Employees, AFL-CIO, in Washington. 
DR. CHAMOT: Thank you. I appreciate the opportunity to speak before 
you today as a representative of the public, for it will be, after all, 
citizens uninvolved with the current research with recombinant DNA who 
ultimately will benefit or suffer from the results of these experiments. I 
do not claim great expertise in microbiology. Indeed, ray formal training 
was in organic chemistry involving nonliving systems; however, in the past 
I have spent several years as a researcher in academic laboratories and a 
few years in industrial laboratories, and I think I know something about 
people and how they behave in these environments. 
Our main concern, of course, stems from the possible results of miscalcu- 
lations, both the underestimation of risks for particular experiments as well 
as overestimation perhaps of the extent to which voluntary guidelines will be 
followed. We are, after all, dealing with new technologies at the frontiers 
of science. It would be foolish indeed to assume that we know all of the 
answers at this stage, or even many of the questions. The fact that a par- 
ticular type of E. coli appears to be relatively safe does not in any way 
lessen our general apprehension. Other systems are being worked with, and 
many more could be used as technological advances are made. 
There is disagreement even among experts. I need only point to the 
comments and letters you have received on the current proposals as well as 
such public discussions as the National Academy of Sciences forum on research 
with recombinant DNA held just last March. 
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