249 
Dr. Finklea is the Director of NIOSH. 
DR. FINKLEA: The worker can request an evaluation of toxicity, even 
when the condition or the agents encountered are not currently subject to 
Federal standards. But workers in public service areas and workers for 
public universities do not have the prerogative. 
DR. FREDRICKSON: Dr. DeRoos? 
DR. DE ROOS : With one exception, I guess. Where we have State-approved 
plans, they do have the right, is that correct? 
DR. FINKLEA: Not all State-approved plans. 
DR. FREDRICKSON: But some of the 26 States that have their own ap- 
proved plans do have that right in them. 
Any other questions from the Committee? Thank you very much, Mr. 
Thacher . 
MR. THACHER: Thank you. 
DR. FREDRICKSON: We have two more public witnesses. Dr. Szybalski. 
DR. SZYBALSKI: Dr. Fredrickson, I will address myself briefly to the 
implementation. We well know that what is very important in implementation 
is motivation. But we realize that often such motivation will be lacking, 
since there are good arguments both for and against the Guidelines and their 
implementation. 
I interviewed several students, post-doctoral students, and also I talked 
to several people in industry. What are their motivations? The motivations 
might be very strong if you really were afraid of danger. But if a person 
listens to Dr. Jim Watson, as he discussed the issue here before, he really 
does not have to worry about any dangers. And most of the students I talked 
to, practically all, are not afraid of recombinant DNA. They say they are 
too intelligent to be afraid of nonexistent dangers. They are only afraid that 
their careers could be affected, that they could be having some legal troubles 
or something like this; that is their main motivation. They feel intimidated 
by the N.I.H. Guidelines which make little sense to them. 
As far as industry goes, I was very surprised when I talked to two vice 
presidents at one of the meetings. They said they favor regulation and legisla- 
tion. When I asked why, their answer was simple. They are well equipped to 
handle any regulations, much better than university scientists. So they hope 
that the dangers of regulations will help them to entice many good university 
scientists, the very best ones, to work for industrial laboratories, because 
industry will offer them legal protection. 
There are also plenty of negative motivations. Many students came to me 
and asked: Why should we do experiments in a way which we know wastes taxpayer 
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