160 
time. It is called a dose response curve. That is the largest dose which 
doesn't kill the animal. 
We feel those types of experiments should be done. Animals should be 
given the maximum tolerative dose of _E. coli , and then what happens is you 
look, during the normal lifetime, for instance, and I guess in mice it is 
two years. You allow that mouse to survive for two years, and then you look 
to see if there is any sign of transformation, that is, cancer. Those are 
the kinds of tests that should be done. 
Other types of tests have been proposed, that is, to put polyoma, I 
guess, on a lambda vector into EL coli and then put that into mice. Then 
the assay would be to look for some rapid signs of virus multiplication or 
the production of T-antigen. 
Well, in some ways those experiments are being set up to give the nega- 
tive answer, to give the go-ahead to do more experiments. Production of 
T-antigen is symptomatic of something, but there is no saying that that is 
what you would be seeing. 
Okay, the sixth point — Well, I might also mention in that banning and 
delaying, there are other points which weren't mentioned yesterday, but I 
think they are all pointed out to you in the guidelines. The sixth point is 
that we are opposed to both SV40 and polyoma as vectors, at least until some 
human epidemiology has been done that would demonstrate that they will not 
cause cancer. 
Then there are other minor points, such as points on physical contain- 
ment. I honestly do not believe there is any difference between a PI lab 
and a P2 lab except that someone puts up a sign. I mean, people walk in 
and out of those labs all day, and I think P3 containment is the first 
meaningful level of biological — physical containment. Even that is 
questionable, and that was raised yesterday. 
I can stop there. 
DR. FREDRICKSON: Thank you, Dr. Goldstein. Are there other comments 
or questions? 
Dr. Wallace Rowe? 
DR. ROWE: In the question of lowered containment for the embryonic 
tissue, I would like to clarify one point and point out one incident that 
occurred at La Jolla that I really think ought to be brought up to a general 
committee on this subject. 
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