201 
I think Dr. Fredrickson should be commended as being a person in what 
our members refer to as being a bureaucrat, as taking that step to include 
a broad public participation. So that is the first point, realize that 
participatory democracy is coming, and you can pat yourself on the back for 
this first step you made, but keep looking over your shoulder. 
Okay, it has also been brought up who should make this decision. Should 
Dr. Fredrickson be the one making this decision? It that too much responsi- 
bility to give one person? Congress and the President are fighting about 
this thing right now. Congress wants just a little more to say about policy 
than the President is letting them do. I think this is an irrelevant ques- 
tion at this point, because this is the system we have right now to work 
with, and I think we need to support Dr. Fredrickson with as much informa- 
tion and opinion as we can give him, and for the time being we have got to 
live with this system. 
The third concern is the military applications of this thing. Our 
group also works on aerospace activities, and we have been trying to find 
out for three years what the military is up to in outer space. We can't 
get any answers there. 
I don't want to have that same thing start happening in this area, and 
I think the scientists and — I don't think we can do it with these guidelines, 
again, because NIH is just part of a huge picture, but I think we really 
need to stress that the military also adhere to these guidelines. 
Okay, another point is what kind of budget are we really talking about 
here? For fiscal year 1977, research and development got increased substan- 
tially, but do we know that that is going to happen the following year? 
There are only eight science-oriented Congressmen in the House and Senate, 
and that is not very much in the favor of scientists to express your point 
of view. For all we know, in the next couple of years down the line, if 
we don't get this type of issue discussed in the public, you won't get any 
budget money for this type of thing, and you can use your pipettes to pick 
you teeth, because that type of thing isn't going to be there. 
So I want to keep stressing, let us continue this public input, get 
this discussion going, so we don't have to get down to the emotionalism and 
fights later on down the line. 
Okay, another point is the physical containment. I feel that we have 
been given a bit of a snow job on this, and on paper that looked real nice, 
all those different facilities. But the human factor is involved here, and 
you can't tell me just because at P3 a facility is going to — has got all 
these safeguards. There are still humans involved in that. I have some 
contacts at the lunar containment facility who spent many times more de- 
veloping that than any of these facilities we have been discussing, and they 
told me that they had stories that would knock my eyes out. Well, I don't 
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